Discussing Feasible DPS Boost Solutions

[Achillez]

It has finally come to SoE's attention that the gap between paladin dps and all other classes is much too large on live mobs. In the game's current state, shadowknights nearly double what paladins parse on live mobs during raids. This margin is completely unacceptable.

My idea is to write a formal letter or post to the developers discussing our concerns, and offering potential solutions we have come up with. At the end of the letter, I would like to include a large list of paladin names / guilds who have been involved in helping to find a solution.

First, I would like to bring light the illusion that slay undead is overpowered.

RAIDS

In the last 2 expansions there has not been a single significant undead raid target. The few parts of encounters that do contain undead are very small and are very short. As far as actually dps on undead raid mobs, pure dps classes still outparse paladins by a significant amount (top end paladins can do about 3500dps on undead, pure dps can do 4500-5000).

GROUP/SOLO

One of paladins most useful tools in group or solo is their ability to stun mobs. Undead mobs are not stunnable so the dps bonus from slay negates our ability to stun. Giving us the choice between survivability (stunnable live mobs) and dps (unstunnable undead) is something I like very much about our class.

POSSIBLE DPS BOOST SOLUTIONS

It is important to understand, the majority of paladins do NOT wish to see a dps boost against undead - our dps against undead is balanced the way it is. Our main concern is to boost our dps on LIVE mobs enough to cut this ridiculous margin between paladins and other melee classes (most notably shadowknights). To cut this margin I have been discussing solutions with several high end, experienced paladins. We came up with solutions in which our dps against undead remains the same, while our live dps is boosted. I have heard ideas ranging from adding discs, to giving us a short term duration morph into a god (Ende(TM))

A problem is, SoE is hinting our overall dps falls short due to our melee dps, and if upgraded it would significantly upgrade our slay dps. This is a false assumption as all melee caps of shadowknights are the SAME as paladins. Our DPS falls short because of DDs/Dots/Pets/Procs etc.

OPTIMAL SOLUTION

After much discussion, the most viable solution we have come up with is adding a short cast DD which either undead are immune to, or is linked to our undead nukes. This will not increase our undead dps, but will increase our live dps at the cost of mana if we choose to use it.

I would like to hear others thoughts on this and if you do or do not support this addition. Once a general consensus is made on what to do I will take the next steps needed.

[Khauruk]

A well reasoned, fact-based letter will do about a gajillion more times good than a slightly less well reasoned one w/ 5000 names on it.

Good luck w/ dps improvements...it's great to see what's happened to the recently revamped classes w/ the past couple expansions. I can't wait to see what they dev's end up doing for pallies.

[frocus]

Pure Dps should be doing more than 4-5k dps. Top end SK's are hitting upwards of 5k DPS for fights in the 3 minute range.

A good method I think to up our Dps would be to give us an aa similar to Shadowknights Soul Abrasion which adds a % mod to their self buff lifetap procs. The 3rd rank available at 59 gives a 300% mod to the lifetap proc. This would increase our Non melee dps that we get from melee via fury line. This would increase our slay dps some but not multiplicitively like increasing our swings thru flurry would.

[varutia]

If you wanted to boost dps via spells, simply replacing undead nukes with one that works on everything, instead with ones that only work on live mobs. Also start to unlink some of the nukes, having to load two nukes just to fight two different kind mobs are not good, lack of spell slots already is a big problem. Our spells dps are relatively miminal even with unlinking of the nukes on undead with the nukes in current format.

Spell dps are easily tuned and have less impact as balance of classes goes.

[iron299wind]

Seems a spell line which worked on all types would be the best option. Spell slots is definitely an issue already and if we got a new spell line i would prob have to drop a stun to use it. If they want to continue an undead spell line then make it an aa type thing

Alternatively make Holy Forge a live mob discipline only and tune it accordingly to whatever dps increase they want us to have.

[Achillez]

DPS nukes SHOULD be on our stun timer in order to be balanced. We can then choose to either dps or stun mobs - don't expect to get the best of both worlds. I think SoE was on the right track with the crush line, but the damage and or recast timers need to be drastically adjusted on them. As of now the dps added with them is VERY unsubstantial.

[Ghirador]

Just make a live only proc buff like devout fury that compensates for whatever dps boost the devs want us to have. Code it so its unresistable and the frequency and magnitude is appropriate to give a predictable dps boost on live mobs.

[Occam]

That doesn't work for those of us who use Symbol of the Planemaster for the Healing Light trigger.

[Arny]

Just to play devils advocate here.

The problem I see by going the spell damage route is that it doesn't scale very well with your level of progression, unlike weapon damage. If it doesn't scale then non high end SK's are going to be calling foul. If they balanced it at the high end, then the more lowly of us are going to see a disproportionate increase in dps, if they balance it at the low end then the high end paladins are going to be disapointed.

[frocus]

Arny Our Melee dps and SK melee dps is almost Identical. Where Sk's come out ahead in auto attack dps is thru their inmbued shroud procs and innate ToFS proc and the mods those 2 procs receive thru soul abrasion. The rest of SK dps is received thru spells.


Edit The diferences in our melee dps comes as a result of various attack and ac taps available to shadowknights not due to differences in skill caps or weapons but the minor shifts granted to SK's in dps come from higher attack for them and lower ac on mobs grants a small shift in hteir favor.

edited above so a sentence made more sense.

[Achillez]

It scales perfectly just like SK spell damage and pure caster spell damage scales. Higher rank spells + better focuses (improved damage/spell haste/mana preservation etc) + more AA + better gear = more damage done with spells.

[frocus]

[iron299wind]

Modifying the Devout Fury Proc is not a bad idea, but at the same I think we will have to shorten its duration. Having a dps proc that lasts for 2 hours will definitely make the sk class scream foul if they are casting their's throughout the battle.

But at the same time I already keep several short duration buffs up so if we need this buff up for dps I will have to drop something else. Perhaps instead of modifying the Devout line we should modify the tunare line and add a DD component to it. Its already a short duration buff so that is not an issue. The aggro could be adjusted if the dd generates more than is intended. Since this spell already has several components adding one more shouldn't hurt.

Example Cast Preservation of Tunare it still does atk, str, ac boost, heal 600 while being struck, but adds a dot component that does say 1200 damage over time to the target or just a dd spell of set damage. *note the damage would be dependent on what dps we are intended to have.*

[frocus]

Ironwind both Devout Fury and the SK self buff proc Shroud of the Blightborn have the same 1 hour base duration. SK's also have had since oow a passive proc ability to life tap like the one we just picked up this expantion for self healing. Both of these abilities are effected by the SK aa Soul Abrasion. There should be no general SK outcry as a number of the Shadowknights think it would be fair for us to get an increase to our proc dps. They just don't want our flat melee dps to far out stripe them except on undead.

Edit: Any change to Ward of tunare line would likely result in an SK outcry as they get a Different version of the Spell which instead of a heal plus hot on proc, procs a 3 hit vie type rune but instead of percentage based is damage based.

[boukk]

[iron299wind]

How about that Mark of the Crusader thing they gave us, it works like a reverse ds in that while its up the next hit does x damage to the mob regardless of who the mob hits. Maybe they should bump up the damage that does for a dps increase for us.

[iron299wind]

No your misunderstanding what i meant Bouk, the heal effect on Tunare would work as always it would simply add a dot or dd component to the mob targeted each time it was casted.

[Peaky]

I would recommend not going down the road of modifying a proc buff such as Devout Fury. Do we forget so quickly that the SoF proc buff was supposed to have an additional component to add extra damage versus undead? They never could get that working right, I don't think we want to put our fate in something that is clearly too difficult for modifications to be implemented by the coders.

With respect to having a Ward proc a dot on to the mob, that's a big problem from my viewpoint as well; how often do we pick up raid/group adds that we anticipate will be mezzed?

[Achillez]

Adding a higher damage proc buff really wouldn't be balancing because there is no additional cost for us to use this buff. Right now SKs and other casters increase their dps at the cost of mana, pure melee classes increase their dps at the cost of endurance - wanting high dps proc buff would just be asking for free dps. Right now on raids that don't require much healing I find myself at near full mana the entire time even chain casting crush lines. If they upped crush of compunction dd to say 2kish, cut the cast time in half, lowered the resist check and took some agro off the spell, I could see this as being a good boost to our dps at the cost of mana.

[Occam]

[boukk]

Base dps boost (as nodyin suggested), pet , or big nuke is the only way to go imo.

Pretty sure nodying has his own ideas already anyway.

[Achillez]

I will make this as quick and to the point as possible.

Best geared / AA Paladin DPS on live raid mob pure melee only 1300ish

Best geared / AA Shadowknight DPS on live raid mob pure melee only 1300ish

Why? Paladins and Shadowknights currently have and have always had the same offensive and defensive skill caps

Best geared / AA Paladin DPS on live raid mob total 1700ish

Best geared / AA Shadowknight DPS on live raid mob total 3300ish

What makes the difference? Shadowknights are able to boost their base melee DPS through Dots/DDs/Procs/Pets/AAs by about 2000 while Paladins are only able to boost their base melee DPS by about 400!

SOLUTION Give Paladins a means to boost this 1300 base melee DPS through spells/procs/AAs. DO NOT increase melee damage unless you plan on completely rethinking Shadowknight DPS as well as paladin.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME!

Disclaimer: These numbers are not 100% accurate but are VERY close.

Making one new thread to discuss this issue when one already existed was iffy. Making your second new thread on the same topic when one already existed is a bit much. Merging them together...

[shiftie]

paladin pure melee is closer to 1100 or 1150 give or take the new tower weapons, parsed with a crystallos weapon was under 1050

[Achillez]

I'm going with average raid buffed pure melee dps. Is 1050dps fully raid buffed champ etc?

[boukk]

Made up number dont help.
Sk base dps is already higher just due to their innate AA proc, put a sk and a paladin afk attack on, sk dps will already be much higher.

[knytul]

them numbers are pretty close to reality. off by a no more than 2-300 either way, but still the point is STRONG. So take that 1700 and 3300 and say that was an undead mob. There your seeing about...oh what is that 95% difference? Think Slay Undead is gonna make that up? I think not....

[Tuono]

a new upgrade to yaulp for pally?

Brell(putrandomdivinityhere)Yaulp V increse attack 50 increase proc mod 10%
Brell(putrandomdivinityhere)Yaulp IX increse attack 102 increase proc mod 100 %

in brief no mana regained from yalping.. but increased attak/proc mod doubled vs cleric line..
maybe is not enought..

[Achillez]

The numbers I have come up with are by no means taken out of thin air.

Uhaen posted a long parse on a test dummy in the arena and did 1050dps with a cryst 2h. Factoring an upgrade to tower weapon + attack buffs from a raid, 1300dps of pure melee seems very reasonable. Being a mostly crystallos geared paladin, I can add around 300dps using procs and crush line. I am missing a few spell AAs though and have crystallos spell focuses, not tower. That being said, 400dps added with spells by a top end paladin is pretty ballpark. As far as SKs parsing 3300dps, this number was taken from actual top end raid parses (yes they can do more on burn fights).

Every other class in the game (minus clerics) have the ability to at least double (if not triple or quadruple) the maximum dps we can put out on live raid mobs if they use the correct means.

The argument of SKs out parsing us melee because of procs is moot, because I am speaking STRICTLY melee. Adding some sort of innate proc to our melee will not effect our actual damage done pure melee and will NOT effect the slay damage modifier. (btw, we do have an innate proc - blessing of life)

Lets for fun examine some more numbers to dispell this ridiculous rumor that slay is really overpowered.

Top gear/AA Paladin base melee dps 1300 + 75% increase from slay = 2275 base dps (the 75% increase taken from devs themselves)

Factoring in spell + proc damage of 400dps, total = 2675dps

Now lets compare this total of 2675dps vs 3300dps Shadowknights can parse on any target and we get a 725dps difference on undead.

So unless our undead nukes alone can do more then 725dps (realistically speaking, chaining both I would say is a 500-600dps boost max), Shadowknights have the ability to out damage us on undead mobs.

For the record I am not trying to nerf Shadowknights in any way - I am just using them as a similar knight class to make a comparison - all other classes can parse similar and in most cases well above Shadowknights

[Kintarus]

[knytul]

can we lock this one too until we get word back from Nodyin? The last thing we need to do is shoot ourselves in the foot by offering up what could turn out to be mediocre ideas.

[Brohg]

Absolutely not! Fetter free brainstorming - totally kosher. No one should believe that Nodyin will read this thread, for one thing. Think of it as an internal community discussion

fwiw:
squire/shieldbearer/bannerman pet, haste buff for him, AAs available for him
disc
AA zerglancers, pop at zone in on mounts and charge to the battle, each hit for 1k & poof
fire spear nuke line (0.5sec cast, 30sec cooldown). come back, Flame of Light!
magic nuke size of sk lifetap (1.5sec, 12sec cooldown), recourse 2 tick self shortbuff lynx
Bite parallel (1.5sec cast, 60sec cooldown), recourse 3 tick
make Flames of the Valiant Target Type: Group v1

Not a pick list! D) All of the above!

[Grungloe]

Idea #1
A disc similar to opportunistic strike or shield topple.
Gauntlet Drop: Level: 78 Cost: 850 endurance
Usable only during the first 25% of a mob's HP.
Short term recourse buff: Gauntlet Drop: Increase incoming damage to caster by 10% & Increases hate generation by 25% .

& does ((((your opponent's level)-(your level)) + int(rand(opponents level))) * weapon damage) damage.
Minimum of weapon damage as the formula could provide negative values if the mob is lower level.
Cannot slay, but can crit (keep the big numbers!)
Usable once every 30 seconds and the (de)buff lasts 1 minute. Does not stack w/ Charge for Honor type spells.

Group Values: Assuming you are level 85 and the mob you are fighting is level 90 and 100 damage weapon
Max damage: 9500 (((90-85) + 90) * 100)
Min damage: 500 (((90-85) + 0) * 100)
Max Potential:
9500dmg every 30s = 317 dps. Crit: 19k / 633dps
Min Potential:
500dmg every 30s = 17 dps. Crit: 1k / 33dps
Avg Potential:
5000dmg every 30s = 167 dps. Crit: 10k / 333dps

Raid values: Charlvl(85) + NPClvl(90) + PriDMG(150)
Max: 14250 (475 dps) Crit: 28500 / 950 dps
Min: 750 (25 dps) Crit: 1500 / 50 dps
Avg: 7500 (250 dps) Crit: 1500 / 500 dps

Justification: Fits paladin lore. Won't significantly increase dps compared to other classes.

Idea #2
I am against pets except swarm pets. Don't give paladins any pet AAs.
Copy and modify the Pack of Aina spell (85 shaman) make it drain 250 mana a tick & heal for 400 hp a tick; call it an upgrade to the Breath of Tunare junk we got back at 56.
Upgrade the shaman spell to have a similar HoT component as the current incarnation is useless for them.
Proc: Summon Pets: SwarmPetSquire x 1 for 10 sec (use the graphic of the guys in the first part of Air, max hit 500. Can Slay Undead[5% rate] for maximum of 5k damage). Optimal procrate tuning to provide 500 dps on live & 1000 dps on undead.

[Peaky]

I recognize that many people (including some paladins) in the EQ community think we are foolish for largely declining a boost to general dps at the expense of some maximum potential for single combat rounds versus undead. Perhaps I, myself, was too hasty to turn down such an offer. There are ways discussed in the locked thread (bummer, lot more discussion would fit in that vein than in this one) that helped move my opinion from steadfastly against to curious about the possibilities.

I chose to be a hybrid class for the variety it provided/provides. Because the game has taken the direction where all but a very few classes are concerned with their dps beyond all else, why does that pigeonhole paladins into that system as well? Mock me for not wanting supreme dps if you must, but don't try to turn me into a shadowknight with targettable heals and weak targettable cures. Leave me stagnant in the raw dps aspect of my game and increase other abilities to keep me unique - upgrade the lines of my spells that have fallen by the wayside that could do leaps and bounds for my playability if they were brought current via new incarnations (root, blind, fear, pacify, cures, stuns, flame of light, haste, mana drain --- there are so many ways these concepts could be improved or altered to provide us with more playability as hybrids, some of which could involve dps). I would MUCH rather increase the utility of my class than have developers increase my dps in the absence of any other positive changes. Being able to do soooo many things in solo/group/raid settings affords me with more opportunities to enjoy the game. If many/most classes want to do nothing but burn mobs to the ground, so be it. We are the defensive knight - improve those capabilities to give us the gap in tankability that shadowknights enjoy on the offensive side of the coin.

Do I want more dps? Yes, of course I do; I try to maximize my character's potential in all aspects of play. Would I quit if they took away slay undead entirely (or hell, undead mobs entirely) and turned us into a no-trick pony when it came to solo play? No, the game is still quite fun after all these years and removing my largest current source of fun wouldn't lower me below the threshold of wanting to continue exploring Everquest. Some would argue that we still have tricks such as stuns - let me know how that argument holds up when they keep adding zones where almost nothing is stunnable (korafax, internal FoS theme zones . . .). Why do you think this content is not stunnable - it sure isn't to cock-block enchanters/wizards/druids? There was a point in the original post that undead are not stunnable; that was true for DoD/PoR/TSS/TBS/SoF, but is not the case in SoD so . . . perhaps that point has been/is being addressed.

I agree with the concept of providing possible alternative solutions to the dps dilemma placed before us, though I think doing so in a vacuum is short-sighted. Please base any dps-improving suggestions on parsed data or direct calculations of our currently available tools, not whimsical (though creative and possibly valuable) ideas.

[shiftie]

While they could upgrade all those skills that you mentioned they would not substantially help us kill at a faster rate. The dps dilema doesn't stem from a desire to burn things to the ground. Its root seems to be centered around the increasingly large quantity of Mob hit points/mitigation that progresses per expansion. It would seem in order to balance the weapons and dps upgrades given to classes as we progress the Devs have given a much larger quantity of HP to mobs. Our dps has not scaled the way that it should. We don't need large dps gains, we just need our dps balanced better in regards to mob total HP/mitigation.

You mentioned in your post the SoD undead that can be stunned, for example in OGH/OGV. These undead mobs have at the very least 2-3X more HP than say a mob in RoI, Direwind etc. or even the live mobs within the same zone. And hit a lot more frequently as I think they are on the same attack scaling that was introduced during SoF. A paladin with max aa and higher end gear would still find his supposed superior undead dps lacking against these mobs. The fact that the mobs can be stunned doesn't really help our cause when it takes just as long to kill them if not longer becuase when the mob is stunned you aren't getting riposte slays and You aren't gaining anything from your damage shields. This fact is why I usually choose to not slow undead content while hunting. If you have ever stunlocked a mob and successfully killed it you can appreciate rotating 3 stuns and how much worse your dps actually is. The fight probably extends 4 times as long regardless if the mob is living or dead.

Consider if you will the "solo" tasks set up for progression. I'm not saying all content should be rolled over. The fact remains it will take a paladin 2-3 times longer to finish an arc of "solo" tasks as it would almost any other class. In the solo game every class has access to a merc, our heals have become trivialized by the addtion of mercs. If a dps class in this context can do 3k dps just from melee *with no discs and a paladin can only 1k dps then the kill rate on the exact same mob type is 3-1. If the average fight for the dps class is a minute and a half, then it takes a paladin 4 and a half minutes. All of this prior to mercs was balanced because the dps class would have to med back his mana/endurance and or "rest" now he might not have rested the full time to bring his kill rate even with a paladin over a long enough timeline but our healing abilities were our advantage. So if we can kill a mob every 4.5 minutes that means we can kill about 10 in 45 minutes while a dps class with the access to free heals can kill 30 mobs in the same time frame. That is quite an advantage when you consider xp hits. I know this is just an example for the solo portion of eq but it trickles into every other portion of the game. I realize it isn't a fair comparison to equate paladins to dps classes but it works for my solo comparison.

In the group setting when you are trying to burn xp as fast as possible, why would you choose a class who does much less dps to tank than the other 2 viable choices. Not only that but the paladin doesn't have the same ae abilities. I can sympathize with a cleric in this regard. During SoF I would avoid adding a cleric to the group in beza instances because it was much more effective to self heal and just fill their spot with a dps class and I'm sure this has gotten worse for them also with the addition of mercs.

In light of the dps gap an improvement needs to be made. The improvment needs to be made completely independent of our utility. All of those spell lines you mentioned most certainly deserve a look and would be so much fun to have back in our repitoire.

I personally don't want an overpowered dps overhaul. I just want the gap narrowed so that in the event that I only have 45 minutes to play I can just go solo or finish a task. Solo and not have to slum in expansions 3 years old. I also do not wish to spend time lfg because I'm not the "best" choice to tank. Eq is a community oriented game and it used to not lean so much toward soloing. I would like to get back to that old paradigm but in the meantime I also do not wish to fall too far behind. If SoE decides to make a DPS merc, I would likely change my mind on what dps gains I think would be needed. I also think and I've even mentioned it on the other thread- If there had been undead content added in the last expansion no one would be seeking out dps solutions. HoS and loping planes had just enough undead content to keep the paladin community sedated. The only thing that lacked were a few raid targets.

From here on out I think we should cut out the comparison that SK are offensive and we are defensive tanks. Sk no longer take a penalty from being offensive tanks. Why should we for being primarily defensively oriented?

Anyhow, I like many of the ideas posted above for DPS increases and I would support nearly all of them (This INCLUDES TWIN SLAY haha) No matter how large or small any of the gains to our dps are. What you all have suggested would add a new element of fun to the game. I love getting new abilities, every expansion the first thing I do when I log on is look at my aa list and see what has been added. Prior to that I'm on lucy/alla trying to see what new spells if any I may receive. I think the devs should take some of this stuff to heart that wouldn't be a pain in the ass to code. The copy and paste format of upgrades has gotten old. How many of you are excited each expansion to grind out more defensive combat agility and combat stability aa? I was so seriously happy to see the spires even if they ended up being a bit disappointing. Speaking of new skills and what they add to the game. How many of you were excited to get your hands on that void disc? Though not new to the game, new to the class and that small adjustment added yet another huge utility to the class. I say Bring On The New Abilities and go away copy and paste.

So yeah... DPS gains = good
DPS gains while independently and silmultaneously revamping some of our older utility abilities and spells = MO BETTA'
I would support both fervently.

I don't want to be an sk
with that said...
I wouldn't trade heals for lifetaps
I wouldn't trade root for snare

I do however feel like sk's gained rez, but we never gained FD. What they should have done is given paladins pacify indoors and just upgraded the ranger outdoor spell line. And I think the devs need to seriously consider this previous balance with regards to those two abilities.

I really do hope that we get something new if they do decide to revamp our dps.

Cheers,
Shiftie

[Hulkling]

I like Smites. Clercs have them, we should have paladin versions of them, and we sort of do already with the Crushes. Not very out-of-the-box, but simple and easy and to the point.

Or, since we have enough button mashing, a big huge upgrade to the Fury line of imbue proc. Turn them into Smites via AA or whatever. Activated or passive, or both

[Sylvia Sunhair]

[knytul]

[Maglor]

Ok. My two cents here. I do agree that the live dps of the paladins should be increased. But there are other considerations that I look at as well.

From the beginning, the paladin and shadowknight were two different classes with different prevailing philosophies. The shadowknight was to be superior to the paladin in terms of offensive, the paladin superior to the shadowknight in terms of defensive. IN other words, the shadowknight could dish it out, the paladin could take it.

To a large degree, the shadowknight advantage has been elevated. In fact, it is not only vastly superior, it is obscene. As we all know, the shadowknight can really dish it out. I agree that the paladin should be given some more dps, and the proposals to either give the paladin a live only dps blast or to make our undead blasts useable against the living are acceptable to me, as long as it is kept within the flavor of the class (i.e., no dots, no leaches, etc. Just good, honest straight damage).

However, on the other side, the paladin ability to take it has been hurt. It is true that against group mobs our stuns do slow down a mob's dps on us, but against red mobs our stuns are worthless. Throw in the shadowknight abilities to leach health from their enemies plus their own defensive shields and it is obvious that the original concept of the defensive abilities of paladins has been severely mitigated, especially when we are the main tank.

I myself would love to see a development of the paladin ability to take it. I will grant the shadowknight the ability to out dps us, but I do wish the paladin to have the ability better take the damage than a shadowknight could. As it stands now, healers prefer shadowknights mainly because they can out-dps paladins. I have been told that they consider shadowknights to be just as easy to heal as paladins. In other words, they can take it just as good as we can. This has to change.

No, there would be no tried and true balance. That is always subjective. What is once considered balanced will in the future be considered unbalanced, and what was once considered unbalanced will be in the future be looked upon as the greatest of balance. But balance is not my concern. A holding towards balance tends to throw out the game anyway. Instead, it would restore the original flavor of the game that has been somewhat lost in the drive to balance.

Yes, Shadowknights should outdps paladins by a considerable amount. The difference should be adjusted, though not eliminated. But the paladin should be given back the ability to take it. This was a characteristic of the class from the beginning and should be restored.

[knytul]

umm, no disrespect intended bud but that whole post just stated the obvious, now how would you come about solving that issue?

[ebob9]

I've been skimming through all the discussions and good ideas posted here, and I wanted to add some thoughts to the conversation as well.

For a frame of reference, I'm a paladin that's been inactive since PoP, and recently began leveling again - so I'm not end-game or near maxed AA/Levels yet.

The root of the issue seems to be that Slay Undead gives us an exponentially scaling increase in damage output while fighting Undead. If Sony wants to increase our regular melee damage output, they will also increase Slay immensely by the nature of the way the skill works. This will lead to balance issues.

My first thought then is why not give us a new AA skill, the opposite of Slay Undead? Name it something like "Righteous Strike", and have it give a Slay-Undead like crit to non-undead monsters only? Obviously, it would need to be less damage than Slay. At this point, our damage output would increase, and they could take the extra damage from the New Skill/Slay into account when balancing Paladin weaponry.

However, this all strikes me as the same issue that Rogues had with Backstab. At some point, this large scaling damage will prevent us from getting higher damage weapons. At that point they may need to put in a 'Slay DMG' number on the weapons, much like 'Backstab DMG' numbers are there today. Actually, just adding 'Slay DMG" to future weapons may be the best fix, in that it prevents our Slay DPS from becoming unbalancing, and it allows us to have better weapons. Also, it lends to some creativity for Slay weapons in the future. They could create low damage/high Slay weapons specifically for fighting undead.

-ebob9