W/SoT Balance Discussion

[Normy]

[knytul]

[Coupdvil]

Well said Knytul

[Jarcey Heyokah]

can of worms?

Did i say anything about nerfing your heals? Nope just pointed out that your healing power is on par w/ shammies... sure you can talk all you want about langour. Its a nice spell too keep up on melee's or even those casters' that like too over nuke.

Did i mention sumthing about SU yes i did... why do i mention that well im also an SK. My shm is my main and always will be. I also mentioned that that the conversation about SU was for anohter thread, and another day.

On the nameless server there's twice the amount of pally's running around verses SK's. Try getting an SK into a guild... no room cuz we have nuthing too do on raids cept stand around and look good. IDK if ya been too Roi lately either... or HoS. Yeah pallies arent wanted for anything.

Actually i've seen a all pally group on more then one occasion. They seemed to be doing just fine.

again my opinion is my opinion... not yours... if you think shamans are so over powered then go play one

[knytul]

lol i never said they were overpowered. If your seriously gonna come into the Pally area and throw ur weight around, do it right.

Shammys are one of if not the best Utility classes in game. I wouldnt ask for anything on them to be nerfed...Ever. Our healing power isnt on par with shamans. Healing order goes: Cleric > Druid > Shaman > Paladin. Youve already said your main is a shaman and ur alt is a Sk....dont try pretending to know our abilities, ur not any good at it. If your sk cant get into a guild, its either 1) that raid leader him/herself has no use for sk's (meaning they dont know how to utilize them), or you suck as an Sk. I know in our guild we use our Sk's ALOT. Hell weve only beat 2 gods 1x in solteris and tonite we had an sk Tank Astire from 100-0. Last nite Sk tanked Mining Behemoth in Steam factory. Yeah u can see an all paladin group, and u can see an all cleric group, all mage group, hell even all ranger group....so whats new?

Seriously man, dont quit ur day job.

[Vasei]

[Unmei]

[Carmaris]

[knytul]

a paladin schools a shaman on a paladin....then a paladin schools a chanter on a paladin.....whats next?

[Brohg]

Next is a shaman "schooling" a paladin on courtesy?

[Tugela]

[Normy]

[knytul]

[knytul]

[Brohg]

The slow on Lassitude and Languor is meaningless. It does nothing because any time you have Languor, you have a shm, whose slow is over twice as effective. Lassitude and Languor are only healing buffs like WoT.

[knytul]

[Unmei]

[Normy]

@Unmei

I'm not convinced that is the only reason to use it. The slow is something to be considered, although I can't imagine it being used in a grouping situation. However, in a raid situation, sometimes we are low on shaman but loaded up with adds. When we have to have knights offtanking multiple adds and only 1 or 2 shaman on with us, that slow proc becomes more useful the more adds that are involved in a fight.

Yes, it helps with agro, yes it has a chance of a small heal, but also yes, it can slow the 15 adds that just spawned and rushed 2 SK's and a paladin.

But again, thats only a specific situation. The slow is useless to a grouping shaman.

[shiftie]

Let us examine the languor line and address a few issues.

Languor is at least a 20% slow when it procs. With that said it reduces the overall dps of mobs by 20% with a chance to heal. The whole reason for the nerf to WoT to begin with was the exploit on multiple mobs. We could essentially kill a bunch of mobs by merely pulling more than what would otherwise be possible. It is said that the healing produced for the mana required was not balanced. I've seen the argument that languor only casts slow once and only once and does not continue to cast slow because if the mob is already slowed then the spell does not yield an effect over and over in the same fashion that WoT/SoT do/did. Once slowed the mob remains slowed there is no reason or logic that it would need to be slowed over and over its dps is effectively reduced by ?% for the duration the debuff lasts. Thus the mitigation produced is constant once the proc goes off.

in a given scenario where I pull 12mobs all light blue cons lets call it spiders in RoI for all intensive purposes.

WoT in its previous state would heal and heal and heal it was a protective barrier that mob dps tried to fight through, if I clicked my epic back in the day pre nerf WoT would crit for 1114 a proc and it proc'd a lot. With 12mobs beating on you the dps output is rather insane with the limit to procs if WoT dropped you were capital D E A D. Now I realize that pulling 12mobs at once is quite the suicide approach to an explanation.

Now lets discuss the shaman line defensive proc in the same form of combat.

I pull 12mobs... said shaman casts ae slow, that shaman is now dead... but wait before I pull 12mobs clever shaman casts languor on me, and now with the proc rate as high as it is within the first 30 seconds of combat the shaman just slowed all 12mobs effectively reducing the dps of all 12mobs by at least 20%. In terms of mitigation given the ability to proc and the proc limit there is no way WoT/SoT could effectively reduce the dps on all 12mobs at the same rate. It would wear off and you would have to try a recast. Once the mobs are slowed by languor the shaman can then go back and single target slow or ae slow if they prefer. But the mitigation it produces is extraordinary relative to the aggro it creates, which is a known limiting factor when casting slow. If slow is resisted and a recast is required more aggro is created. In the event that languor is resisted all it takes is another swing by the mob to recast the slow generating the same amount of aggro for the shaman which is 0. And all of this is not even considering the heal that has a chance to proc adding to its overall mitigation.

In the event of multiple mobs as was the case with WoT/SoT being nerfed I don't see how languor is any different. I'm not calling for a nerf to this spell I just don't see how it is any less exploited. The reason I chose RoI as my example is because I have sucessfully pulled 12+ mobs at a time on more than one occasion if a shaman is around to cast languor on the basis that it reduces all dps on the mobs to an almost laughable rate, meanwhile some rangers spam AoA and we win at EQ. I could not even think about doing this without Languor, therefore the above mentioned reason for the nerf on WoT applies... which would be that one can essentially pull and kill a bunch of mobs that would otherwise be impossible revolving around a certain spell proc. I could go out on a limb here and say that there is no other way within 30 seconds outside of an ae slow to reduce mob dps by the percentage of languor other than defensive discs. And as I stated above the dps is reduced for the duration of the debuff therefore you only need 1 proc to create this mitigation vs several procs from WoT. In terms of mitigation languor is just as exploitable as WoT used to be… people just refuse to see it because they don’t believe reducing mob dps through combat procs at 0 aggro to the original caster as such. Where in nearly any other situation it would be impossible to do so. Whether it be a heal that is mitigating the damage or a slow the devs felt it wasn’t balanced to mitigate at the rate WoT allowed for the mana cost… yet languor allows for this exact same type of mass mitigation.

Cheers,
shiftie

[Normy]

Well, interesting explanation, but I see a problem with it. Using Languor, you still can't go out and kill 12 mobs solo. The pre-nerf version of Ward basically allowed that and then some. Using your example, even with the mobs slowed, you are toast unless you have the DPS to put those mobs down before you run out of mana/hp. So with three people, ranger, you, and a shammy, you can do what some paladins were doing solo with pre-nerf ward.

The smart paladins of the time were taking on enemies that weren't really that strong, but provided SOME xp. Killing them in mass made it good xp. Thats why the hole was so popular at the time. Each individual mob couldn't hope to overcome the amount that Ward would heal for, and you could gather up 20mobs of light blue xp and kill them fairly quickly due to Slay Undead and those mobs being old world and having much less HP.

To me, the reclassifying of what is what con color and the raising of the level cap actually eliminated most of what could be heavily abused. The hole at level 80 isn't worth XP anymore. But in that form, too many found ways of exploiting it and I'm not seeing the same stories about Languor. Look around to see how many references people have of pulling several hundred AA's from the Hole while the level cap was 70, more people fess up to it now that Ward is nerfed to badly.

[knytul]

"Using Languor, you still can't go out and kill 12 mobs solo."

Maybe you cant...

[shiftie]

[Brohg]

[shiftie]

the difference being that the overpowered nature of WoT and languor would not apply in current content - it is observed in zones no one really cares about anymore and or the occasional hotzone which is what I was applying my observations/opinion to. In current content they both serve their purpose in accordance with what the devs first had in mind. Which is why neither of them should have been nor should be fooled with.

[dindaur]

edit -

i dislike the lack of stack on tunare / lang. i would like to see our self buffs work at all times and not just when the greater buff is absent. however, our haste is shit, and works when chanters shammies and potions are absent. so theyve done it before.

[knytul]

wow..Dindaur...please...Format your stuff man. No way in hell i can sit here and just read it....

[Normy]

[knytul]

[Unmei]

[Thyr]

i play a pally main, shammy bot. wot after its most recent change is a vaguely useful spell, languar is extremely useful. while the slow on it is not as good as my shamans main slows it still slows the mob until the shaman can get them slowed. ae slow is bad when duoing with the pally, i rely on the slows from languar to slow mobs until i have had a chance to secure agro on all the mobs. pallies have no real ae agro. yes i know i can use heal agro, but the shaman gets alot of heal agro from healing me as well, then toss the slow agro in there and usually at least one mob goes after the shambot if i rely on heal agro.

what are the real questions of this thread?
is wot overpowered. in its current from no.
was it ever overpowered. no.
why? it did not help on meaningful content. it did not keep me alive when being hit by several equal level mobs. on current and even the past couple of expansions raids the use of low level adds to keep wot procing does not exist, there are no low level mobs to keep it procing.
can pallies heal as well as a shaman? no. my fully raid geared pally cannot keep up in the healing department with my all bazaar/quested/group geared shaman. the pally cannot cast as high a heal as the shaman can as long or as fast as the shaman can (counting recast times), despite a much larger mana pool and better focus effects the pally runs dry of mana long before the shammy.
is languar a useful spell? yes.
why? it slows mobs even if only slightly on inc., it has a heal component to it, it has an agro component to it, it stacks with anything the pally can use.
should wot be returned to its orignal form? useless debate we all know that is not going to happen. just leave the sad spell alone.
is slay undead overpowered? no, barely useful. even when my guild was doing fc pallies were not even considered for dps. it was simply go offtank mob x. it is more gimick than anything.
can you compare shamans and palladins? no. they are a complimentary class to each other. they need each other. pallies need shammies a bit more than the other way around, but hey such is frequently the life of any tank.
what should shamans and paladins learn? we should be cheering each other on and hoping to get each other every upgrade and increase we can. pallies and shamans as a team can do impressive things.

as for other classes, you know what when i watched an sk with lower hp and lower ac (when i say lower i have over 500 more ac and 2k more hp) than i have soloing a mob in steam was i crying nerf the sk's? no. why? i was happy for him, he was able to play the class he wanted and do most the things he wanted with it. i hope he can continue doing this. i would hope other classes would take a similar approach and say good for him. it might make the game better for all.

[knytul]

Thyr nailed it on the head with this 1 line right here:

while the slow on it is not as good as my shamans main slows it still slows the mob until the shaman can get them slowed.

Unmei, go put on some plate and go tank something and see if u notice a difference between Partially Slowed and Fully Slowed...

[Normy]

[knytul]

go lifesap augs then.

[Normy]

Not a bad idea, but the amount that a lifetap proc MIGHT mitigate probably isn't as great as the extra AC is capable of mitigating since when I'm stuck tanking, I'm usually tanking more than 1. The difference is negligible (spelling??).

Anyway, back to more on topic, I'm actually decently happy with how SoT and WoT work now. SoT finally feels like a real upgrade now with the extra HoT tick or two on it. I wish they would fix it to be a confirmed 2 ticks instead of the much more common 1, but I think they only intended one tick on it. The proc rate has been raised quite a bit based on my experience. Its still no where near what it was pre-nerf, but even back then I knew it wasn't going to last forever. I saw it as over-powered, even if I did enjoy the hell out of it.

[Unmei]

[shiftie]

@ unmei

evidently you didn't understand me, I never compared the healing proc. I said that you were able to exploit a defensive buff proc to kill a large amount of mobs that would otherwise be impossible without the defensive proc. The reason WoT was nerfed was due to the exploit of the spell procing the more mobs you had and allowing you to kill mass amount of mobs at the same time (and the occasional god). With Languor you can do a similar type of exploit and if you don't believe me create a toon on BB send me a tell and I'll take you and show you. At which point you will understand why the 10% slow does play its part in an exploit. Suggesting that I don't understand the difference when you play a silk class and I actually stand in on the dps daily makes me giggle. There is a HUGE difference when languor is cast, like I said make a toon on BB and I'll show you.

[shiftie]

@ Normy

Get the shielding proc aug from DoN camp, it has a similar effect to rune and comes in handy with the shielding from Trial.

Knytul also made a valid point with the lifetap aug

125 dmg base crit dd = 250 with aura and other focii it goes up i think i get 330 something you can then crit heal on the crit dd and you get a 600 + (maybe more i haven't paid close attention in a while) heal from the proc - that is really nice mitigation. Without the ae aggro component from the rune it actually provides mroe mitigation than the rune III jade proc.

just my 2cp
cheers
shiftie

[Clamford]

[shiftie]

[shiftie]

bleh dbl post