The Spirit Realm

yesterday, it was suggested that possibly either adding to our current Undead nuke line, OR revamp them...into an Undead BANE nuke line. Ie: Take a 3k undead nuke and turn it into say 2500 live with 500 Undead Bane. That one so far ive been most in favor of.

In Addition with some Modifications to previous attempts, i think we should also push forward again for the Frontal ae cone for ae agro. The Nuke line mentioned above NOT have the agro mod that the Crush line has, If our HoTT's not gonna become above the level of a HoT potion, revamp that maybe toward a Promised Renewal line, Scrap the Shining Light line completely and powerup Devout Touch. Remove the Required to be in Group concept from Aurora as that is SOO easy to get around.. Revamp Divine Aura to allow us to Melee while its on. Revamp the Targetable Curing line as well as it is VERY weak.

Added Bonus: Possibly adding Swarm Pets to us as well as we are the ONLY hybrid class (yes theres 5 classes and 4 have it) that doesnt have it. Pal, Sk, Rang, Bard, Bst: 2 are pet classes, 4 have swarm pets..were not lookin much like hybrids. Same concept on our spell department either (thus post above).

Think thats a good enough start for now..

*Edit* After talkin to a few others, a copy/paste of Explosion of Hatred: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=16100 seems better off.
4 target limit, 50 radius, 2500 ae hate. Targeted ae.

I'm in the boat of "don't touch Aurora line." I fear if they do they will change other aspects of it that I truely love.

This list is fairly comprehensive, although I don't agree with taking the agro off our crush line or unlinking them from our stuns. I believe that they were meant to be a substitute for our spells when the mob was unstunnable or you didn't want a stun to proc healing light.

Instead I would like a line not unlike the SK's have, that give an innate chance to proc spell damage on the mob. Theirs heals and does damage, I would settle for doing damage.

Burn disc would be nice, give something equivilant to the SK's. And yes please bane undead damage on our self weapon proc buff line.

Reduce the recast time of RC and give us a few more ranks, I still feel cheated that mine now casts a second faster rather than recast being a minute shorter.

A new live DD spell line that has bane undead on it would be nice, and normal upgrades to our undead only DD line.

As a still playing casual player, I'm neither here nor there on the above list.

What I would still really like to see is an autocasting Lay Hands AA, like the Divine Lay talked about many months ago. I would really like to see it that if a mob gets a lucky round in and I have Lay Hands up I do not go splat with that resource there.

An increase in DPS would definitely be nice, yet any class can say that. If paladins are unbalanced in DPS than we need to be rebalanced, but I don't really want to see it turn into a "Buy the next expansion and 100 AA's to make up for the error now."

On a minor note, what I would also love to see in the next expansion is the best 2-handed group obtainable weapons being 2h slash. I'm getting tired with both SoF and SoD top damage group weapons being pierce.

My thoughts added to the mix,

Adol Krystin (the Rathe)

2- Give Paladins SCS (Spell Casting Subtlety) Agro spells are not effected by this.
This would be nice to have.

3- Give Paladin Crush spells a REDUCTION/removal in/of hate generated.
4- Unlink Crush spells from stun lines
Crushes were designed in response to the Paladin community's statements about our stuns and how they interact with content above cap. Long story short... removing the agro is foolish... they are a bonus to our agro line that allows us flexibility to do something useful with our agro spells... which is also why they are linked to stun lines. However, between 3 & 4 combined, it seems felt that it would be the only way we'd receive any sort of nuke. Regardless, I highly disagree with this.

10- Possibly add a soul abrasion type AA
To what? Soul Abrasion affects lifetap proc spells. I'll have to test it, but I doubt that it affects weapon procs, nor does it affect cast lifetaps. SKs having both a vampiric line of self buff procs and Touch of the Cursed to use the line. What line would we be using an ability off of?

Overall, those three are the biggest that I question. The rest is "I want more DPS!" and fairly blunt about it.

I think you can actually debate the original dev intention behind us getting crushes. You can say its to get a more useful spell on stun immune mobs but frankly thats bs. Sks use agro spells and that is all they are. No, the crush line was to give us dps. They went ahead and added the agro to them for god knows why probably to molify that contingent you spoke of, and linked them to stuns so we would not unbalance agro generation. I am not opposed to keeping crushes as they are IF they add a new spell line. For THIS to be our current means of increasing DPS is a failboat. In any situation when you are NOT the tank/aggressor you can not really use these lines. To have hate and dd on the same spell makes them just as useless as stuns when you are not tanking.

The soul abrasion idea was one that was discussed in serverwide the other day. No it does NOT work on weapon procs. Just the 3 lines of self procs the sks cast. Currently we only have 1 proc line. So it would make that proc do more dmg. That isnt to say we wont be able to get more proc lines that stack just like sks as we go forward. We gotta start somewhere.

The idea of Divine Lay on Hands is interesting for sure. I doubt they would give you a 100% chance of it firing however. Still any chance is better then none. I wonder if they could also make it a targetable buff. Same duration as DI, maybe a 10 min refresh on the targetable version if it wears off untouched, and the same refresh on LoH if it triggers. Also it would have stacking issues with DI im sure. Which is fine if its the same chance to fire.

Divine lay i could see as being BUGGY as hell with Act of valor, thus why wed never get it. You target someone, hit Act of valor, it drops your hp's to 0 then Divine lay kicks in and CH's u back up. Given this all happens on %ages, but lets face it..were talking about Sony coders here who couldnt get Aurora right forever...

I Vote Keep the Crush line as it is, with the AA heal off stun it serves its purpose as well as allowing a little extra DPS on unstunnable content.
Give us a new line thats a live Nuke with an undead bane and the AA's to reduce the agro if the need is there or just build a small jolt into it.
I also agree its time our Weapon proc buffs were combined into all in one(lets face it unless the content was 80% undead the live proc was used so it affected 100% of mobs in mixed content)
Give me a real burn disc give it a 10-15 min timer
Im all for a retune to our current disc Holydoesnothing
Im also for the Divine Lay on hands Idea but cant see it ever being usable on others due to possible coding issues

As to the rest Im not sure I feel strongly one way or another tho Im gonna have to say Im tired of the crutch the other 2 classes use to deny the paladin class its own version of AE hate its far past time the paladin class had a form of it as well.

weve been talking with the SK's and they are in favor of us getting AE Agro, as long as its within reason. The idea they suggested which works really well for us imo, is the copy/paste of their Explosion of Hate:
4 Target limit
Targeted AE
50 Radius
0.5 sec cast time
Recast time says 0 on Lucy, but even a little cast time wouldnt hurt.

that would be pushing it for unlimited....learn from mistakes in SoD beta....

4 target limit would make it just useless.

It need to be unlimited, with decent Hateamount, but limited in recast time.

I disagree that 4 mob limit makes it useless it fits right in with the past paladin justification for needing it as an OH Sh*t ability to help quickly pull a multi-mob over pull or etc off the squishy crowd. I personally think it would be an acceptable form of AE agro.

If you dont know how to aggro 2 , 3 or 4 mob, then you need to review how you re playing your paladin, cause there s nothing hard about it, it however start being hard after that number.
Up to 4 is just a waste of space.

I don't see the use of up to 4 aggro tool, it doesn't make sense, and be so situational that it will be 100% useless.
I have no problem aggroing up to 4 mob in a very short amount of time,neither should anyone unless being utterly lazy, it just gets harder past that.
The Sks i did talk to dont care about the hit limit, or shape of the AE, the only thing they care about is the recast time.
Some 5k Ae on 4min recast would be infinitly more useful than a stupid 4 target limit.

The only things i am waiting for in the next ext is : huge boost in our dps, boost on our heals,pacify and a decent form of emergency AE hate.

Yea, even if I CAN get agro on 4 mobs "in a short amount of time" it comes no where near .5 seconds. Even a group heal isn't that fast, and those require more of your group mates be on agro anyway which means people are taking damage that don't need to be. Point is, we are not going to see AE agro like SK's can do.

I'd be ok with the targeted 4 limit AE agro. I'd also be ok with the long reuse emergency AE agro if thats what it came down to. I'm not really all that interested in the cone AE agro since in most of the situations that I would like to be able to AE agro, I'd struggle to face all the mobs I want.

Another few ideas I had to toss out there:

How about a self-only weapon proc line that gives all of our bashes a large amount of agro. Doesn't stack with other weapon procs. The point behind it is that while tanking, we wouldn't need to chain cast to keep agro and therefore our meager DPS would at least be present. We'd give up the DPS from other possible weapon procs, but we'd be able to swing much more often.

The ability to run 2 discs at a time. Make that an AA purchase and expensive, give it to the three tanking classes.
- Hand in hand with this, a shielding disc. Select a groupmate or just another PC, use this, it drains endurance while it runs but we take 25-30% of the melee damage that hits that PC. Would have to stay in range of the PC for this to last the full duration, make it 2 minutes or so. 15 minute unique timer for reuse.

not necessarily Ugh. The thing is, our ONLY offensive disc (Holyforge) lasts forever while its up. I cant remember the last raid fight i popped Holyforge at the start, and it was done b4 the raidfight ended... So if at anytime midfight i need to pop deflection or Armor, i have to DROP my holyforge then use the defensive ones. Maybe we can alter that to instead having 1 disc area, have 1 Offensive and 1 Defensive disc area...?

I could see the zerkers loving running 2 discs at once... all the way to the guild lobby.

I mean, I get it, but I was looking at it from the defensive side of things.

[quote="Wyvernwill"]2- Give Paladins SCS (Spell Casting Subtlety) Agro spells are not effected by this.
This would be nice to have.
[quote]

With all respect but that sound completly bogus to me.
what spells do you actualyl want to have less agro ? stuns and crushes are designed as agro spell so we want the agro, healing is the only way we have to generate any AE agro so i sure as heck dont want the agro reduced on it, that leaves less agro on buffs ??

ohh and shiftie normal heals generate AE agro also ....

Edit

i lose at quoting

Are you two serious about SCS? I specificially said that our spells that have hate components would NOT be effected by it (yes this would require code work). I also said that everything on the list has to happen pretty much or it all needed to be reworked. Thus stuns, current form of crush, and AA stuns are still going to generate the same agro. Spells like Undead Nukes, buffs, heals would be effected by SCS. IF we get AE agro like we want why would you ever blow 1800 mana for agro again? Clerics still pull agro with group heals with SCS so its still going to generate some agro. The whole idea is to be able to use group heals AS INTENDED. Not to use some side effect as our ONLY means to generate multi target agro. In some aspects of the game that would be considered an exploit. We however just allow it to continue as situation normal and then bitch up a storm when people tell us that we already have ae agro in the form of group heals. These are things that effect group AND raid paladins. The only time you would not want SCS is when you are the only tank around always. Do you never group with SKs, Paladin, or Warrior friends that want to tank? Do you never raid with others? Do you ever want to cast a spell to maximize your DPS or Healing power and NOT take agro? IF we get an AE agro you have a device to use that is its INTENDED use with no negative side effect. The negative side effect to group healing when you dont want agro is reduced as is your ability to use DD nukes.

How about bringing back up the ON/OFF idea for SCS. AND/OR giving us Silent casting. If so many of you are against SCS (/boggle)

I personally don't care for SCS but that's whats cool about it, if you don't want it then don't spend the AAs on it, just like the SKs didn't spend AAs on it years ago (if anyone here remembers when they had that AA in game). I like healing to add massive aggro but that's me. As for everyone else I think it's a great idea by Gilthanos for it especially since it doesn't affect our stuns, give it a shot guys it's not a bad idea.

na, just give us 96% and be done with it. 96% to 98% to clerics really aint that big of a deal. By just giving us 96% the devs give us a reason to want to rez again, and take less stress off of clerics.

Gil I think you have some odd and unique issues with agro. I raid plenty, although not at the level Triality is on, but I frequently chain one of my crushes (the 300 DD on the other one isn't worth risking a swing of my weapon) and I heal lots. Like sat there and chained my burst heals, and I've never pulled agro for it.

I do pull occasional agro using my group heals, but I've never been sorry for that. Unless all I have in my groups are warriors, I'd rather the mobs be hitting me, and I've never pulled the raid target with it.

On undead targets, if I chain my 2 highest undead nukes AND use my highest damage crush, then yes I've been known to pull some agro. The simpliest solution is to not use the crush line in that situation. As for the group situation and pulling agro, there is at least one easy solution to that, use a different spell. For healing within the group we have the perfect solution already in front of us.

If you are stealing agro from raid tanks using heals only, they are doing something wrong. If at my level the tanks are holding just fine, they sure as hell should be holding at yours.

The issues with aggro if you are actually trying to do dps are in fact a problem.