Reduced agro on Inquisitor's Judgment

[joks]

Didn't see it mentioned, but here goes:

In order to fix the agro on Inquisitor's Judgment, the highest rank now has a -1200 agro per proc. This means, it's useless when tanking. If I don't have solid agro before using it, I now lose agro to my bard and shaman - something that has never happened before. The bard is just singing and swinging - nothing that should generate extra hatred. I'm not sure I dare use it if I group with any real dps agro whores. If someone could pull some strings to have this adjusted to a more neutral value, it would be nice

Anyone else noticed this in a group setting where you're the tank?

[Hulkling]

hmmmmmm. So maybe we do have an agro reduction ability after all.......this might not be a bad thing? I guess it does make sense from a design philosphy --> when performing our primary role (tanking) we shouldn't be pumping out extra DPS.

Its doing the same thing as , except its x 20

[Turayalon]

Ive noticed agro all around pretty bad lately since the patch to fix IJ shame they reduced it that much tanking with it on is very good since it procs at a much faster rate. Anyway we could see if 1-our other spells were affected from the patch agro wise accidently and 2- if we could atleast have it not reducing agro sure its decent dps added when we use it but reducing agro is far from needed.

[Genadinee]

Where do you get the information of the -1200 Hate as its not on Lucy or Raid Loot?

[Peaky]

[Genadinee]

Hehe Thanks I was having a Blond moment was looking at Disruptive Persecution for some Lord Knows reason.

[Turayalon]

Is anything being done with this ? I dont see how anyone would need this to do negative agro but I can see how folks might want it not doing huge agro like it was before. Whats the thoughts out there ? I think it needs to be set at 0 or very close to it for agro the fix was needed cause the agro was unreal but now you cant tank worth crap while using it.

[riou]

I'm glad it's negative aggro, it's exactly what we need for burns, some way to reduce aggro

on normal mobs I have no problem keeping aggro in a group using it even while dps is burning

[shiftie]

neg aggro is a good thing imo allows us to actually crush with MR on named.

[Turayalon]

0 agro is fine unless the tanks are slacking there is no way you should be taking agro using crushes,vindication and persecution. -1200 is a death wish imo lost agro tanking fippy1 the first time cause of IJ its a shame it has a low reuse but you cant capitalize on it cause of the huge negative agro.

[Hulkling]

[shiftie]

even if i'm not doing anything at least I feel like I am I did always crush before but at least now I'm not chasing aggro as bad.

[joks]

[Hulkling]

[Peaky]

When I want to use IJ in a group setting, I just pop the sword pet first then IJ after the pet transfers it's aggro to me.

[shiftie]

yeah that's usually what I do also.

You can also use the SoD bp it has an aggro component, and then of course aggro poisons. I don't really lose aggro while burning IJ in a group setting.

[Zanador]

Keep in mind for a group setting tho raid boys you probably have a way better hate mod item then most causual grouping paladins yeah there is a 22pct available in conv but alot of causuals aren't that far into uf so using it against a decent necro or wizzy or mage is prob a bad idea for a causual grouper. Could the devs code it so the hate is reduced equal to the damage dealt per proc after resist checks maybe? so it's zero aggro not a negative aggro?

[Peaky]

[Abazzagorath]

You get 20 procs from IJ. That's 24000 total aggro loss.

Using rank 2 (for grouper):

Crush of Compunction: 2605 hate, 24 sec recast
Force of the Crying Seas: 3349 hate, 12 sec recast
Devout Force: 2977 hate, 12 sec recast
Disruptive Persecution: 3100 hate, 9 sec recast
Glorious Vindication: 1459 hate, 18 sec recast

You can chain those and gain 1061 hate per second which does not count melee swing hate or heal hate. Let's say you average IJ lasting about a minute. That means you're still about +40000 hate over that minute.

If you can't keep aggro with IJ going, you probably aren't trying hard enough.

[boukk]

I dont think anyone is saying you cannot keep aggro with IJ, but what s the point of spamming aggro when you use IJ and want to do dps? considering you ll lose quite a chunk of dps spamming.

I dont think this should be tied to this ability.

[Turayalon]

Indeed Boukk you have to look at all angels of this ability in grp, raid and what everything you had to do while its running. I firmly believe this ability needs to either be set to 0 agro or very little negative agro like 100-200 per proc.

[riou]

If you're using it to burn a named you're probably popping projection, even without projection its super easy to compensate for its loss, negative aggro for burning is so epic win, do not change

Btw, projection refreshes faster then IJ so if you need the aggro you can pop projection everytime before you use IJ, problem solved

[Hulkling]

Spoke with Elidroth via PM's, and he says the Hate reduction is intentional.


Also, I verified this with the Devs.........Hate mods (Echo of Anger V) will multiply negative agro (Inquisitor's Judgement rank 6): 25% x -1200 = -1500

[Vaindolf]

I like it, only aggro reduction thing a paladin got.

[Nightops]

I believe the amount of negative hate generated is way to much.

The biggest problem with your numbers Abazzagorath is that IJ can and often does proc faster then once every 3 seconds and dps classes can generate more hate then 1k per second. The duration of IJ is directly (or randomly if one prefers) dependant on the amount of swings and not time based. The long pole in the tent determinging how well one keeps agro with IJ running would be 'time spent casting' (and not swinging/procing IJ) during the duration of IJ which in turn clouds the reason for having a dps burst AA to start with. Note to Devs- Please dont cap the number of procs per minute like you did with the heals on the Tunare line; the heal proc is useless and lame in the opinion of every paladin.

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From my experience with IJ, its nearly impossible to regain agro once it is lost. The first post mentioned losing agro to a bard who was just singing and swinging. My personnal worst has been losing agro to a box'd enc DD. The only solution I have found to use IJ while tanking is to only use IJ on lvl 85 or lower trash mobs that can be stunned. I get agro then pop IJ around 70-80%. When I lose agro, I cast any available stuns and when the stun effect wears off taunt/crush/GV/burst until stuns refresh. The goal at this point is not to try to gain/hold agro but to keep the mob stunned so its not attacking at all.

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Hulking - Is there anyway to verify the amount of negative agro generated per IJ proc is consistant at -1200 when it crits? I dont get into the parses and behind the screen data, but doesn't a 20k crit nuke generate more agro then the same nuke landing at 10k? When we crit IJ are we getting a -2400 drop or does the agro reduction calculate in a different method?

[Ughbash]

[Freevudo]

The BER in my group rips and dies nearly every time I use this when tanking a boss, even if I use the pet, spamming stun/nuke and all tricks. I simply don't use it when tanking anything difficult anymore, which is kind of a shame. I even had my bard rip once *gasp*. While some might say the BER needs to be careful with his aggro, when I don't use it he never rips, even with full disc "burn" and me half asleep.

Freevudo

[Hulkling]

[Abazzagorath]

If I hit it when tanking, I don't lose aggro. I don't know what to tell anyone that can't keep aggro with it up. We have so many aggro tools that you should be outaggroing the loss. Are people popping it before engaging a named or something? Its nice having something that lets us use our crushes on a boss mob without assuring taking aggro. That is what we asked for anyway, not for "more passive dps when tanking ability". *shrug* I'm happy with it.

[knytul]

im almost tempted to sub a month JUST to see what all the commotion is about.

[Nightops]

I did buy the Projection of Piety AA a few days ago and it does help out a lot for keeping agro, however its not the answer to the problem. I'm alright with having negative agro on the procs, however I firmly believe -1200 per proc is at least double the amount that it should be. I actually didnt mind the spell having positive agro on it. It just ment that we couldnt pop it at the beginning of raid fights unless we were tanking.

IJ imo, was to give us some type of burst/short duration dps on non-undead mobs. I've been using IJ around the 75% mark of a mob. Even waiting that long usually results in 7-10 of the IJ procs not being spent on the desired mob.


For raid fights, paladins take out like 1% of a boss mob health during a fight. I don't see how spaming the crush spells really effect any dps output during a boss fight.

[vawen]

Without the negative mod IJ was a dead sentence for me on any raid mob. Even waiting to 75% I was getting agro from the mob (depend on the war tanking, but around 80% of the time). At this moment it is much stable and with crush I don't lose agro except if there is a bad time proc on a break mez or something like that. What I do with IJ is to not use DP and focus on the AA stun that have more hate if I want to ensure agro, for me works like a charm.

[Normy]

So I gather this is a confirmed and intentional change then? (I.E. Sony is not planning on further changes)

I'm not really sure what to make of it based on discussion here, but here are some thoughts:

@Nightops: Paladin DPS is essentially a tiny tiny amount of the average raid mobs health. I lead raids for my guild, we aren't cutting edge but we aren't total slackers either, we are working on Tower at the moment but dealing with low numbers on our server as a whole. I expect EVERYONE to know how to max their DPS, and to do it at all reasonable times. This includes the knights. I've failed way more events than I care to admit at a 0 or 1% wipe. So even though our DPS is typically pathetic, I still want people trying to push for a little more.

@Abazzagorath: I'm an agro tard, and from the sounds of it, you are too. I think the point is though that this one "burn" like ability requires us to spam so hard just to counteract the effect of the burn, that how productive is it really being for us? I know that when i need to spam cast to keep agro, my DPS generally does a nose dive. Just seems counter to the nature of what this is trying to fullfil given our typical role. That would be like giving a zerker a great, short timer disc that does more damage in 20 procs, but each proc has a built in taunt. Very much against the nature of the class, even though I do know a few that would use it to their advantage.

I can see why the grouping paladins are annoyed with this change. I personally would have rather have seen more along the lines of 1 agro on each proc, and let the paladin decide if he wants agro while using it or not. However I raid alot, so this is just fine with me, I'm not typically tanking the main mob. If nothing else, the description in game really needs to reflect this change as a number of paladins that haven't been paying close attention to here or some patch messages are really confused why it seems their agro is so horrible suddenly.

[shiftie]

This is the reason we use crushes, dp, glorious on raid mobs and why we like IJ with neg aggro. (This is an extremely lazy burn and no where near what the guild actually burns for as a whole when not afk jerking off during boring fights like fippy but...)

/GU Fippy Darkpaw the Immortal in 61s, 13526k @221745dps --- rogue 1251k @21205dps --- rogue 1210k @20869dps --- monk 1009k @17391dps --- monk 871k @17080dps --- ranger 815k @14293dps --- monk 772k @13091dps --- zerker 602k @10212dps --- zerker 591k @10015dps --- zerker 504k @8696dps --- Shiftee + pets 500k @8333dps

Shiftee -vs- Fippy Darkpaw the Immortal: -- DMG: 495396 -- DPS: 8257 -- Scaled: 8121 -- DirDmg: 279545 -- Slash: 215851 -- Non-crit rate: 56% -- crit rate: 41.1% -- crippling rate: 2.8% -- Attempts: 167 -- Hits: 141 -- Missed: 24 -- Defended: 2 -- Accuracy: 85.5% -- Avg Hit: 3513 -- Max hit: 11723 -- DMG to PC: 0

So while you consider paladin dps to be only a small % of the overall raid dps the same could be said about every individual. Some of us like to maximize every aspect of our output on a raid - tanking, healing, curing and yes even DPS. The negative aggro on IJ allows us to do this and is something that we were interested in prior to it being added to IJ. If they want to give us DPS nukes (without hate overrides) call em lances or something and then put aggro back on IJ that would be a fair trade off. If we don't get nukes that resemble that then I like the neg aggro on IJ too much to lobby for a change.

the above parse did not include a bard or shaman in the group, I did have MR from a chanter.

[riou]

Projection of Piety is on a 10 minute reuse

Inquisitor's Judgment is on a 12 minute reuse

Projection of Piety by itself is like 3 minutes of chain aggroing

IJ only takes out ~15-20% of projections aggro after it uses all 20 procs

you can pop projection by itself and never do anything else on a mob and if you used it right you wont lose aggro the entire fight over anyone for 2-3 minutes, heh, if the fights over 3 minutes maybe they will start catching up, but you can always cast more aggro and lock it further.

I dont get what the problem with aggro is, if its such a big deal use projection, problem solved


IJ with negative aggro is big for burn DPS, it cuts out a decent amount of aggro, enough that you can use Crushes without jacking aggro(which will get you around 750 dps extra on a burn), not jacking aggro means more dmg you can pump out and less chance of you turning mob and messing up raid and such, if anything we need another ability like IJ now for raid burns to counter whatever other DPS we may be getting in the future, maybe a bash jolt like ranger kick jolt