1 handed v. 2 handed comparison (Romidar, 7/24/03)

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1 handed v. 2 handed comparison (Romidar, 7/24/03)

Postby Valya Wanderfoot » Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:49 pm

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Has severe hammer envy
Posts: 2071
(7/24/03 5:22 am)
| Edit | Del All 1-hand weapons vs 2 hand weapons: A comparison
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Thanks to Romidar for the following statistical analysis of 1h vs 2h weapons.

One of the most frequently asked questions by paladins seeking advice is "Should I use a 1h or 2h weapon?"

This post will cover the "basics" of how to select a weapon, which should explain why sometimes a 1H weapon is better and other times (most of the time) a 2H weapon is better.

Offensive Power

In a perfect world, you could just judge a weapon based on its damage rating (how hard does it hit?) and its delay (how fast does it hit?).

That is, if you divide how hard the weapon hits by how fast it hits, you get an indication of its damage over time potential. This would mean that a 20 damage, 40 delay weapon and a 10 damage, 20 delay weapon would produce the same damage (they both have a ratio of 0.5 - 20/40 and 10/20).

However, you get a bonus to your damage as you level, beginning at 28th level. You can see the bonuses at:

lucy.fnord.net/dmgbonus.html

There is only 1 row in the table for 1handed weapons. This is because your damage bonus for 1handers is ALWAYS the same, no matter what 1hander you pick up; the only thing that determines your bonus with it is your level.

2Handers, however, have different damage bonus that depend on the DELAY of the weapon. Generally, the slower the weapon, the bigger bonus you get. (Imagine swing a big sledge hammer at someone vs. a little carpenter's hammer - one is going to take longer to swing back and forth, but it's also going to hurt a lot more when it hits.) This is why the question is somewhat complicated.

The way to include the damage bonus in the damage/delay ratio is like the following:

((2*Damage) + Bonus)/Delay

So, assuming you're 50th level and using a 1hander with 10 damage, 20 delay:

((2*10) + Cool /20 = (20 + Cool /20 = 28/20 = 1.4

If you are using a 2hander that is 20 damage and 40 delay instead:

((2*20) + 14)/40 = (40 + 14)/40 = 54/40 = 1.35

Bigger ratios here mean a better weapon (i.e., more damage potential). As you can see, in tihs case the 1hander actually has more damage potential than the 2hander, despite the fact that they both have a 0.5 ratio.

Now, take the same two weapons being used by a 60th level paladin:

1h: ((2*10) + 11)/20 = (31/20) = 1.55
2h: ((2*20) + 34)/40 = (74/40) = 1.85

First, both numbers are bigger for the 60th level paladin than for the 50th level paladin, indicating that the 60th level person will do more damage.

However, in the case of the 50th level paladin, the 1hander is slightly better than the 2hander. For the 60th level paladin, though, the 2hander is significantly better. In other words, if you were to choose between the weapons at 50th level you would pick the 1hander; at 60th level, you'd pick the 2hander.

If you compare the 1H damage to the 2H damage bonus at varying levels (at the same delay), you'll see that the 2 damage bonus gets bigger FASTER than the 1H damage bonus.

If you do the comparison, you'd see something like:

Level: 1HBonus/2HBonus
50th: 62%
55th: 48%
60th: 37%
65th: 32%

In other words, at 50th level, the 1hander's bonus is 62% of the size of the 2hander's bonus but that bonus is being applied TWICE as often in the case above.

At 65th level, the damage bonus on a 1hander is a THIRD of the size of the damage bonus on a 2hander, so the 2hander catches up and EXCEEDS the damage of the 1hander.

This means that in the early 50's (and prior to that), a 1hander can and will outdamage a 2hander of the same ratio. As you level up, though, the 2hander will eventually dominate the 1hander.

Many people hope that bash damage will "make up" the difference in lost damage at high levels, but this is not the case. (A long time ago when there were not really good ratio weapons available, that was a different story - now, though, weapons are so good that bash damage pales in comparison.)

So, from a PURE DAMAGE perspective using a 1hander in the early 50's can actually make sense (you'll have to do the math to determine when that changes for the weapons you have available).

Defensive Power

One of the advantages of using a 1hander, of course, is being able to equip a shield. At lower levels, the AC on a shield can be a pretty big chunk of your total AC (as you get better equipment, though, shields don't keep pace - 25 AC on a shield when you have 900 AC is more meaning than it is when you have 1250 AC).

More AC means you are more likely to take less than full damage when you get hit, but you USUALLY need very substantial amounts of AC to get a measurable difference.

At low levels, the additional AC (and other stats) coupled with MORE damage than you would do with an equivalent ratio 2hander actually makes the 1hand approach a smart way to go.

At higher levels, though, you will give up DAMAGE in order to increase your defense. Realize that if the fight goes on longer, the mob gets to hit you MORE TIMES. If it takes you 10 or 15 seconds longer to win the fight because you are using a 1hander instead of a 2hander, it's certain that the extra hits from the mob will amount to more damage than you saved by having higher AC from the shield.

Note that this is mainly an issue for soloing. In a group, lowering your DPS will not make fights take THAT much longer because you're only a piece of the overall group damage. If teh group is doing 200 DPS while you use a 2hander but drops to 195 DPS when you switch to a 1hander, the fight just got about 2.5% longer. If you are soloing a mob and your damage drops from 40 DPS to 35 DPS because you switch to a 1hander, the fight just got 12.5% longer. In both cases you lost 12.5% of YOUR damage, but it is less important in the group setting.

Another issue to consider is that bash will cause SOME opponents to be stunned for short periods throughout the fight - times during which the opponent is not attacking you. This has the potential to increase your defense much more than the AC on the shield. If you are very close to the mob's level, however, you will rarely stun it with bash; if the mob is very far from your level, you will stun it frequently.

Finally, there's the issue of ripostes. Every time you swing at a mob it has a chance to block your attack and hit you in return, thus getting a "free" chance to hit you. Faster weapons give the opponent more of those free chances than do slower weapons. Since 1handers tend to be faster than 2handers, 1handers will usually result in your being riposted more often than you would be when using a 2hander. (This is another factor that removes or reduces the advantage granted by the shield's AC.)

Similarly, your bashes can be riposted. This means that you are increasing the mobs chances for a free attack both because you are using a faster weapon AND because you are using a secondary attack on the mob.

If you are attacking the mob from behind, it won't be able to riposte you. Ironically, this means that using a 1h+shield will cause LESS harm when you are not tanking than when you are tanking. Also, for non-PoP mobs, riposte tends not to be much of an issue because you aren't being hit THAT hard. Against a mob that can hit for 1k, however, ripostes can be VERY problematic (e.g., the mob doubles you for 1k each and then ripostes you for 1k - you took 3k damage instead of 2k damage).

The defensive quality of shields is currently weak enough that using one CAN cause more harm than good (i.e., you take MORE damage instead of less). This simply means that equipping a shield isn't NECESSARILY going to increase your defensive ability. If you aren't going to be taking ripostes (attacking from behind the mob instead of tanking), equipping a shield can provide resists and hitpoints for AE encounters. If you're concerned about tanking, however, equipping a shield probably will NOT make you a better tank.

Bottom Line

Winning a fight more quickly is almost always better. In the immortal words of Mel, the cook on Alice, "The best defense is a good offense!" Base your weapon choice MAINLY on how much damage it yields, as opposed to the stats and defense increases you might get.

At high levels (60+), you'd have to have an amazing 1hander to match the damage of even a mediocre 2hander, and so usually by 55 to 60, you'll want to migrate to using a 2hander.

From 28 to about 55, a 1hander is a very viable option and is often the BEST choice. Of course you need to compare the overall ratio. For example, a 35/40 2hander is probably going to do a lot better than 10/20 1hander because the damage is more than twice is big but the delay is ONLY twice as big.

Prior to 28th level, things are simple - whichever weapon has the better damage/delay ratio should do more damage since you don't have to worry about the damage bonus at all (it doesn't exist yet).

There are situations where the damage bonus actually outweighs the damage/delay ratio. That is, you might choose a weapon with a poorer ratio because it has a much better damage bonus. These situations are not uncommon in most experience groups, however. (In general, if the mob is so tough that you hit for minimum damage most of the time, the the damage bonus matters more than the ratio.)

It should be clear that there's not a quick, easy answer to which weapon you should use (at least not until the 60's). It unfortunately does require a little bit of math to compare weapons, but once you remember that formula (and have access to your damage bonus), you should be able to compare weapons at whatever your level.


The above post is courtesy of Romidar.
Edit: Disabled Smilies - Gilf

Edited by: Gilfalas at: 7/30/03 9:12 am
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Valya Wanderfoot
 
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