Issue with Slow/Healing

[Funi]

[Tugela]

[Funi]

[Unmei]

[Veril]

[Frogbait]

[Tugela]

[Kamion]

[Hecude Poison`Blood]

[bundler]

[Samanna]

[Retron]

[Kilgaroz]

[Tugarol]

Im not sure I get behind the idea that because our slows are mitigated/resisted means we should get better heals. Though I am often the groups healer on raids/exp, my primary role is to debuff and slow and cripple the mob, and then boost the melee dps with epic, cougar and champ, and occasional crowd control with vp. I dont consider myself a primary healer and to be honest I like it that way. If I wanted to be a healer I would play a cleric.

With some aa's our current heals really arent that bad, unless youre trying to be a primary healer which imo the shaman class was never intended to be. I know, I know, some dev said blah blah blah that any healer should be able to work with any tank. I found that load hard to swallow. I never thought my shaman should be on par with a druid or cleric for healing just as I dont expect them to do other things as well as I do. We do so much more with our other spells than a cleric or druid. The best groups for me have a druid a cleric and a shaman. Then I can focus on the mob and the groups dps and let the healers do the healing.

If you remember quite a while back the druids healing power was significantly increased thereby making them more desireable in groups. Funny how no shamans cried about the healing difference then. Thats because the slows were still the right level spell for the mobs. The druid/shaman combo works ok when I do the hot's and patch heals and the druid does the bigger heals. But lets be realistic, theres one true healing class the cleric.

So rather than say we need bigger heals, why not get to the core of the problem. If the problem is with slow then lets deal with slow as the problem. If the problem is our heals then lets deal with that. Trying to muddle slow in with healing seems like mixing apples and oranges. You might as well say the dps we add from cougar makes up for the lack of healing and the slow resists? Makes no sense to me.

I dont want this homogenization of the "priest" classes. I dont want to merge and merge until theres little difference between the classes. I want the shaman to have the spells needed to do his job. Not shift the entire class role towards that of a primary healer because someone forgot to upgrade most of our spells for sof. Take feralisis and ward and the "every priest class the same" bs and stick them back where you got them and give us a new slow and debuff and buffs with overcaps. Make me a shaman again dont turn me into a cleric.

We either need a new and improved slow or a better debuff that will allow slow to land or land more fully. We need upgrades to wrulan (61) and diaku(64 and foresight(71). We need a new set of resist buffs for magic(49?) and such that allow overcaps. Maybe overcaps for all buffs. The last real slow we got was discord at 69. I wonder how many other classes are struggling along with spells 11+ levels below the casters level? I mean I dont mind 4-5 levels between upgrades but 11 levels for our main slow is a big problem. As your cleric to only use healing spells level 69 and below next group and see how well they like it. Ask your druid the same thing. Ask any class.

What we dont need is to have better heals or to be on par with either a druids or clerics heals. What we do need is some new spells appropriate for what the shaman class is supposed to be doing to the mobs. If the slow is broken please dont fix it by increasing heals.

Theres a lot of ways of looking at it but to me you dont fix a problem with slow by granting increased healing. I dont want to be a cleric or a druid thank you. I want to be a shaman. There no reason a shaman should be able to heal as well as a cleric or a druid just like theres no reason a druid should suddenly start slowing and debuffing the mob and the cleric start evac.

Its just my opinion but I think if you want to be a primary healer then make a cleric. If theres a problem with slow (and there is), then lets work towards fixing the problem. Its like a hole in the roof and its raining. You can put a tarp over it and stop the rain from getting in temporarily, but theres still a hole in the roof. You going to get a bigger heater to keep warm because theres a hole in your roof? Heck no! Your gonna fix the roof.

So while bigger heals in a roundabout way might compensate for lack of slowing ability, I want better slows not bigger heals.

Tugarol

[WaringMcMarrin]

[Samanna]

[Veril]

[Tordail]

There was a lot wrong with what you posted, Tugarol.

You said the best groups for you have a Druid, a Cleric and a Shaman. What in the world do you need TWO other priests in your group for? One, perhaps, if you're doing content that's so brutal you can't handle main healing. But two? That seems like a waste to me. I much prefer a group packed with as many melee DPS as I can get.

What you said about "trying to muddle slow in with healing seems like mixing apples and oranges" made zero sense to me. What is muddled about that?

Two other minor points -- I believe Turgur's Swarm is the "new and improved" slow you're looking for. I also believe that good druids DO debuff mobs.

[Tugarol]

[Tordail]

[Tiailes]

In raids, I'm often the only healer in my group. I spend a lot of time mashing buttons to keep puma up, my epic clicked, curing afflictions when required and keeping my group members healed. I don't often get to play the 'standard' shaman slow debuffer role, rather it is my healing skills that are called upon the most.

I would love to have a bigger heal or an unmitigated ability to slow, but sadly, I don't think that will come to pass in the name of "game balance".

I would be really happy if they simply(?) cut the cast/recast duration on my main heal or gave me a new heal with these speedier attributes. We are expected to function as healers and our spells and abilities should reflect this.

[WaringMcMarrin]

[Finori]

[Brohg]

I've been main healing for groups ever since I started taking groups instead of soloing. That was a little over five years ago since I only soloed for a very long time, but on my other characters I've had shaman as group healers all the way from level 1 straight through to 80.

"I don't like doing it" is totally valid if that's how you feel, but it doesn't impact what the actual class is for or capable of.

[Unmei]

Just to take a different angle on this here. The reason shamans are getting "shoehorned" into a main healing role (Aside: That's nonsense. Shamans have been main healing for groups since original EQ. In fact, in groups with no enchanter, they were better at it than clerics prior to slow mitigation) is because, let's face it: For the game to function, groups need to have healers. Saying "the only class (out of... how many? 16? I forget. ) that can main heal is clerics, and sortof druids if you want to do gimpy content" doesn't fly. It can't.

If anything, having main healing "added" to shamans makes them excessively good, since they're already so desirable from a melee-damage-add standpoint, but hopefully that'll spur a risng tide that will pick everyone up a bit.

[Tugarol]

tord, when you begin your post with "There was a lot wrong with what you posted, Tugarol." and then proceed to tell me where I was wrong in your opinion, and then say:
"You said the best groups for you have a Druid, a Cleric and a Shaman. What in the world do you need TWO other priests in your group for? One, perhaps, if you're doing content that's so brutal you can't handle main healing. But two? That seems like a waste to me. I much prefer a group packed with as many melee DPS as I can get."

So the way you posted it I assumed you were telling me where you thought I was wrong since you started the post with that and everything else looked like a sub-catagory of wrongness to me. You damn sure didnt say "but I agree with this part". Now you try and act like you're all innocent and oh gee, no where were you telling me I was wrong about my group? Like why I would need 2 other priests and how that seems a waste and etc. So you can see how I might have got the wrong impression. One of the many faults of trying to express something in this type of format. Without tone and body language much is mistook or misunderstood. Especially when it begins with "youre wrong" and feels like a personal attack.

So whatever. Maybe I took it the wrong way, maybe you're just a grump? Who cares. Again let me apologize for sharing that with you in my attempt to express my dislike for the way our roles as shamans are changing. In my groups like that with 3 priests there are many benefits and what seems like a waste? to you is a solid exp group with lots of "shock absorbtion", lots of "afkability" to me, and to be honest our dps is just fine. Take a druid out of his healing role and see how happy he is doing dps.

Is it realistic to expect every shaman to want to play their character exactly the same way? no. Is there any one "perfect" way to play a shaman? I dont think so but I play to have fun and so might be less concerned about being "perfect". Any one "right" combination of characters that is always the perfect group for every situation? Not that Ive figured out.

Whats muddled about it if you really dont know?, ina nutshell, is that we used to do stuff to the mobs, now we do stuff to the players. While the end result may be the same the gaming experience is not. At least for me its not. And again I say I am not happy being a cleric or being a primary healer. What part of that dont you understand?

I have never played my shaman as a healer and though I do heal maybe a lot sometimes, Its not why I made my shaman. Its not what I want to do when I pay to play. Obviously people here are very passionate about shamans and thats a great thing.

The whole "every priest class the same" thing will never happen fully just like the "every tank class the same" wont either. Thats a generic version of some other game not eq. IN MY OPINION!

Maybe you have been the healer on your shaman since you started. Grats you.
Maybe I have not. Grats me.

Sure I am often the group healer on a raid or occasionally the primary healer in an exp group. But you guys (finori, waring) both seem to say its because there arent enough clerics or druids. You say put the clerics on the main tanks, but then turn around and say a shaman should be able to heal like a cleric? Healing a group that isnt getting hit on a raid except by the ae's is quite a bit different from being a primary healer. So lets try not to confuse things further by trying to equate being a group healer on a raid with being a primary healer. Sure we can heal a group that could probably take care of itself with potions on a raid, so what? Is that supposed to make me happy my slow sucks and my spells are all like 10+ levels old and im demoted to this new role as a group or backup healer? And thats what it feels like to me. A demotion. I have tried to explain it as best I can. Its more of a feeling than an actual number or fact. An intangible that says to me this is not the shaman I created, or wanted.

Let me ask you this: Take a moment and think about it please. Call it curiosity.

You are the raid leader, raiding something your guild has done but has also lost to several times. A mob not yet on farm status but not a first encounter either. The raid is basically full.

IF your guild had so many clerics on that there was one per group on a raid. AND IF your guild had so many druids on that there was one per group also on the raid, how many shamans would you need per group on same raid?

1, 1per group, or somewhere more than one but less than 1 per group?

Would you make some clerics and druids go home or switch to dps alts to make room for shamans to heal?
Would you add a shaman to every group or every other group?
Would you like to be the only shaman on this raid?

I know a lot has changed for us as a class and maybe im just expressing my dissatisfaction with it. I am not trying to start arguments or get into a cock waving contest. But I do not like the way things are going for the shaman class. And I do not think better heals is a solution to crappier slows for me. Might as well give me dual wield.

tug

[Samanna]

[Tordail]

[Brohg]

The raid stuff is humorous because it absolutely makes the point that you're wrong. While in an immediate practical sense a raid force doesn't kick people out, what would happen in your construction is recruiting would close for Clerics and Druids. No more would be taken, and over time as people stop playing the numbers go down. They wouldn't be replaced until the balance was right. Shaman recruiting would stay open. Seven clerics - concentrated in pairs or triplets in tank groups, two maybe three druids - healing their own groups of casters, four shaman - healing their own groups of melee dps.

Clerics aren't in raids for healing groups. Sure their groups live, but the cleric contributes nearly 0dps, direct or indirect. A raid with a dozen clerics (one per non-tank group, two each in tank groups) and half a dozen druids sucks. I've been there, raided like that, when a confluence of returning players and part timers and the usual core were all on. It sucked, nothing died.

Clerics in raids only heal people who are tanking. Look at the mob's HoTT, that's who clerics heal. They have some good buffs to cast, and access to curing, but what they're there to do is keep people who are targeted by the mobs alive. Druids cast their one good buff, cast their several good debuffs, and then do support healing. They'll have their own group. It's generally one that doesn't require any support except survival, like a gaggle of wizards or add-tanks. Shaman have all the melee groups, and they have them alone. The typical construction is shm + brd + ber + 3 of rog/bst/mnk/rng. If a group like that ends up with another healer instead of a shaman, it suffers. All 5 of the other group members will underperform because of it.

Of your choices, A is the closest to reality. "make some clerics and druids go home or switch to dps alts to make room for shamans to heal". Over time, the cleric and druid numbers would be allowed to dwindle. Their raid spots would be filled with new blood, shm and dps blood.

[Veril]

if you have a cleric+druiid per group, kick some out and form (shaman+5 DPS) groups.

The shaman is the primary and only healer for that group.

[Samanna]

Grats on your gold bar, Veril.

[Fenier]