HP vs Mana

[StackError]

Hello:

i am an 80 Shaman on Fennin Ro unbuffed mana 17.1k hp 14.1k ac 2590 with 750 aa's.
I was told by 2 other shaman that HP is a priority not mana. it was a heated discussion and it kinda pissed me off.
correct me if i am wrong but isn't mana the priority for us shaman since we are a not a melee class and need to be able to sustain large amounts of casting during a fight which include healing and HoT spells with our DoTs DD and other spells?

I do realize that having decent hp along with good ac will always help a shammy out should he draw agro or need to assist with adds. but without a large mana pool a shaman will be forced to use canni more (either AA or spell type) which would put us and our grp at risk.

Thanks in advance!

S

[Mojarda]

[Yesak]

Mojarda sums it up pretty well. There may be some shaman that swear by huge mana pools, but I'm one who swears by huge hp totals. HP totals also help with AEs and the like. You cant cure or heal any faster with a larger mana pool but more HP gives you more time to worry about curing or healing yourself before you get to the danger level. And when was the last time you didnt have time for a quick canni or two? Or when was the last time you ran out of mana without SC up? Probably those situations dont come up very often to warrant mana over hp. Just my opinions.

[Vasei]

In years gone by, you'd've been called a druid for choosing mana over hp.

I can't speak for changes to the current state of the game, but I've always considered the ability to concentrate on hps rather than mana to be a core advantage of the shaman class. The only time you're putting anyone at risk with canni is if you don't have enough hps; at that point, mana-heavy gear is devaluing one of your core class strengths. There's also the fairly strong notion around here that a shaman should be able to take a few hits (relative to cloth/leather casters), which you're going to be a lot less capable of doing with mana-focused gear.

[Veril]

HP and AC over mana IMO.

HP become mana and running out of HP will kill you.

running out of mana just means you wait a little to continue,

AC means I don't run out of HP as fast

[Brohg]

Observably, there used to be much more swing between "mana gear" and "hp gear", too. Like Emerald Dragonscale BP vs. CP of the Vindicator in Velious, or Velium Amber versus Velium Fire Wedding Rings. After gear evened out in Vex Thal / elementals, there were big choices to make in augmenting. 40 or 50 hp per slot, or the same amount of mana without hp. That has gone away, too, except for one extreme case in Solteris.

You don't provide a magelo link, I'd like to see how you choose mana without getting hp right along with it.

Oh, and there's almost never a good reason not to be using every type of canni every time you can.

[Retron]

[StackError]

thx for the replys.. here is a link with my stats http://eqplayers.station.sony.com/chara ... 2446712184
and here is my megelo link http://eqplayers.station.sony.com/chara ... 2446712184
I have a solid mix of of hp/mana augs and i have a full set of alloy cored armor with 5 crystallos essences fully buffed i am hp 19.5k 19.6 mana and ac 2756 mana varies at + 200 using my personal tribute. and i get another 1700 hp with my fellowship fire. I also use a elemental light power source which further enhances my over all mana/hp. i have weak face and neck armor but will be upgrading as soon i get those drops in crystallos.
i have yet to run out of either hp or mana in serious or critcal situaltions, and i feel by having a large mana pool with decent hp i can concentrate on playing my class with fewer uses of canni and i even step up with some weapon dps from time to time in addition to casting. I also i might add i am ranked 21 on the server so i think i am moving in the right direction.

I learned EQ from some old school shammy's and druids and i think building a fat mana pool with decent hp ensures i will be able to do my job well in heavy argo situations.

thanks again for the insights!

S

[grusuum]

you still dont seem to get it man ..yes we use mana and the thing that makes the shaman one of the strongest classes in EQ is the fact that we can cann mana from our hp so more hp means more chances to makew\ more mana and if any shaman ever told you to get more mana there main was a cleric or druid ..or maybe even an int class ..they need big mana pools and as much mana regen as they can get .not saying they are bad classes but saying they need to med there mana and have lots of regen ...shamans never sit and they should have defencive skills maxed also ..old school shamans had to worry about big agro from slows befor there were aa to help and warriors had more than just crapy taunt and agro procs on weapons ..so oldschool shamans wanted hp over mana and ac also ..just like now ..most old school shamans play just like they are melee class that can heal like a pally or ranger ...but shamans have slow witch makes them more able to do that .. you play your shaman how you want to but trust me you will find that no other shaman will tell you that you are rite on mana over hp ...should see that by how many shamans here alrdy told you that ...this is first time i posted myself ...but i have played a shaman for a very long time befor we had any good heals other than 400 hp heal and torpor ..torpor and cann made us even back then very strong class for healing and being wanted in groups..ok its very late at night and i think im rambleing ..so just read here man and take what you can from it

[Veril]

When considering the amount of mana available to you there are two elemtnts to consider,
Mana Pool Size.
Mana Replenishment Rate.
most people miss the second of those two and concentrate on the first. Shaman should know better.

For most characters the mana replenishment rate is static = Worn FT + AA FT + Buffs
For a shaman it is Worn FT + AA FT + Buffs + (Cannibilisation)

Maximising mana replenishment increases the mana pool size. After 18 sec you can do a canni. The mana gains from canni significantly outweigh the mana gains from anything else. 714mana from ancestral at rank 2. If you are skipping every other canni then you are decreasing the mana available to you.

Having loads of HP means you can canni a lot more without worrying about it. And canni is the king of mana pool availability!

[Unmei]

I think at one point around here somewhere, I made a post about "effective mana pool sizes" in long fights. I don't feel like looking for it, but here's the gist:

No one cares how much mana you have. How much mana you have is completely irrelevant in all situations UNLESS YOU USE that mana. So what's actually important is how much mana you have available for USE, which is related to, but not the same size as, your mana pool.

In, say, a 30 minute lesson burn with no OOCing, here's how things shake out:

16700 Mana from your mana pool.
25 mana/tick * 10 ticks/min * 30 minutes Mana Regen gear = 7500 mana
13 mana/tick * 10 ticks/min * 30 minutes Mental Clarity = 3900 mana
1 Cannibalization, rank 3, every 6 minutes (Way less than maximum cannying.) = 3000 mana * 5 = 15000 mana
14 mana/tick * 10 ticks/min * 30 minutes of Gimpy KEI you bought in the guild lobby (or an old Class X potion) = 4200 mana
One Ancestral Hearkening 2 every minute (also way less than maximum cannying) = 714 mana * 30 =21420 mana

Total available mana during that 30 minute lesson? 68,720 mana. (Give or take). Your actual mana pool comprises less than 25% of that. And that's hugely less than your maximum possible mana during that period, since that's roughly 1/3rd of the canning you could be doing. Sure, you'll probably bleed a little bit of mana as you heal that damage too, but nevertheless.

Now in that scenario, is it really worth giving up any survivability for increased mana pool? I'd say no. Now, you can argue that what an increased mana pool -does- give you is increased ability to function in "desperation" situations where you might not have time to canni, and which will only last a minute or three and therefore not give your various mana regen abilities the chance to dwarf your mana pool in importance. That was a valid arguement right up until shamans got Spiritual Channeling and Greater Rabid Bear, which, together, give you -vast- amounts of mana in desperation situations, as long as those desperation situations don't roll around more often than every 20 minutes or so. (Or whatever the recast is on SC. I forget.) Once you have those AAs in your pocket, I don't really see any case for mana augs.

[Retron]

[Yesak]

[Brohg]

[anaskesia]

[Brohg]

I rarely use any power source at all, but when I do it's Elemental. I also don't typically chow down on Halloween candy. That bit's just laziness, though, since I have Baking skill sufficient for a BBC.

I really do unload every spell for damaging ones. I've been PM'd already about the dps thing, so I'll just copy my response here:

Ur-Floxiz is one of those special situations where the group needs little-to-no support, so nearly all spell gems can be devoted to dps.

Number one, use everything you have. For the burn I cited, I had myself and doggie meleeing from behind with Cougar 3, zergdogs, Chain Bite, six dots. That's 8 of 10 spell gems. The only concession made to the continuing fight after the burn phase is Ancestral Intervention and Ancestral Harkening. Not even a heal, let alone HoT or Champ. To be very clear: canni's on the chopping block, I might run Vestax's there next time. The spell bar is ALL damage. For buffs, Docent of Toxicity is key, as is Tonic of Efficiency Affinity, and tribute Affliction Haste. And yes, I had Intensity running. Without Intensity, the same effort is around 24-2500 dps. I don't use the expendable AA much. I'll probably be more likely to when I finish the permanent ones, but the no-support burn fights are so rare that Intensity is always up anyhow.

On a compressed short duration burn, it's important to prioritize spells by damage and be aware of their duration. It's all about the total damage you can do with your casting time. That may sound dumb, but it's important because approaching the math wrong can lead to funny conclusions. If you started with the highest dps single spell, for instance, and then cast the highest dps single spell available when the gems came up again... you'd chaincast Vestax's till the cows came home, and cap out at ~1200dps for the fight. The spreadsheet I use I made myself, you can find it . It reflects my situation with regards to foci (Docent and Malosinatia are added in), hopefully you can figure out where to change the relevant bits for you. You'll have to add on your own if the table doesn't already have the ranks of spells you're using.

is the fight I pulled the number from, you can see how I cast from the parse. Basically, Bite-dot-dot-Bite-dot-dot- etc.

Bite
Turg AA
Rancor
Epic
Nectar
Intensity
Bite
dogs
Veng
Veng
Bite
Pocus
Juju
Bite
-is the opener

You'll notice my guild finishes significantly faster than yours. Our best time is closer to a minute than the 1:20 that parse shows off, but that run is more typical. That relieves the need for preserving folks from adds.

[Scalia]

As others have said, the "old school" approach was HP>mana, but so much equipment has comparable amounts of mana and HP these days that it's not as big an issue as it once was.

I still think of HP as the primary stat of any item (after focus effects, I guess), but then I tend to run out of HP slightly more often than I run out of mana , so it's really a playstyle issue. If I screw up soloing and gate out with 1-3% HP left, I think "Gee, that extra HP really helps!", but if I am forced to heal non-stop with no time for canni and the tank dies when I have 2% mana and 80% HP, I think "Gee, I wish I had more mana!".

The question that I would ask is not "What is more important in theory?" but rather "Given the situations that I usually find myself in, is my current balance between HP and mana adequate or do I run out of one more often than the other?" And if you examine the issue and realize that there is no clear-cut answer, then perhaps you can stop worrying about mini-maxing and concentrate on enjoying the game

[Unmei]

[Scalia]

[Frakass]

hehe WB to the shaman/druman argument

[Cabe]

[Tekno]

< Oldskool!

And the oldskool concern was never mana vs HPs, it was AC vs HPs (in other words, HP vs Mana was never debated) ..

Some of us subscribed to AC, others subscribed to HPs ... those that subscribed to mana were exiled to play Druids

Tek
PS so old skool, my sig is now broken when once it worked with the html tags!!!!

[shamuofxev]

I feel like a druman nowadays, I seem to spend most of my time spam healing main tanks, especially on MtM. I even joined a mana camp fellowship ...

[Galelor]

[Tieko]

Old school joke for ya that might clear it up for ya. If you are 20%mana and 60% health, and GTG for a double pull, you might be a shaman.

[zantocon]

I've had people boggle at me when I've just been ressed, hit spiritual channeling, buff myself, and say gtg for pulls at 5% mana. Those that group with me a lot know I'm serious and get to it.

[Yesak]

With SC, i often say that I have infinite mana (which is true to a point) and that they should never ask if I'm ready. I'm always ready and I get annoyed at clerics that can't keep up with their mana usage If I'm healer, I generally tell people to keep pulling until I say stop. I never say stop. My puller friends never stop pulling, most of the time its either them or the tank who ends up begging for a med break.

[Haiden]

[Jaraman]

"finish with 100% mana"

There's something that never happens.

[Brohg]

Haiden, your choice boils down to one gem on the BP and the Emblem. That's it. Tarnished instead of Tainted, woohoo. There's no other difference between your gear and that of other shm. Not a single item difference. It's a suit of the class armor, and every cle/dru/shm item in the Tower.

You forgot to change the power source effect on each piece of armor, btw. Your wishlist profile reflects Growth hp instead of the Light that you put there, which, incedentally, would be Ethereal if you had any conviction.

[Veril]

Running out of mana doesn't kill you and there are things YOU can still do when you are OOM. Drink a potion, melee, med, click an item or an AA etc.
Running out of HP kills you, and there is nothing YOU can do except wait to get rezzed.

I've very HP+AC focused over mana here. I really don't even look at the mana statistic on gear that drops while raiding, I'm sure it has plenty. And I rate augs by (AC*3 + HP + Mana/3)to rank them for replacement and upgrades. My survival is pretty damn good because of that focus when mobs take a dislike to me - I survive noticably more than all the other shaman in my guild I feel because of this. I simply don't run OOM on trash clears or named events.
The only time I will get low is when I spamming heals continually in an event. Even against the pyrilean+gelidan in the trophy room I don't go OOM, I simply cannot cast my spells fast enough to run OOM before the mobs die.

What's good is that you can choose to play EQ the way you want and I can play it the way I want, and we are both happy.

[Haiden]

My choice boils down to the most HWis you can get on each item. Also if you do a sort by Hp then Mana I am 5th on Magelo if you go Mana then Hp I am 2nd and am only 480 mana behind Banut who is only missing 1 tower slot to my 10. As far as the PS goes ty I changed that I do not normall use etheral except maybe at the start of a long event. I never said straight mana I said I tend towards mana. With the changes (Again I am comparing to Banut who is only missing 1 tower upgrade and is a Hp nut) I will be 1300 Hp behind him and 2300 mana ahead of him also note 75 more HWis than he has so unless he makes a huge upgrade in that 1 item there is a bigger difference in our gear choices than you let on to.

As far as Veril's responce, that is a weak arguement. Everyone on the boards understands that when you run out of Hp you die I am saying that the 1300 Hp extra I could get at the cost of 2300 mana would not save me from dieing unles the death was one that was my own fault. Also the trophy room is hardly an event that is mana intensive enough that it should be running you oom.

[Brohg]

More than I let on? Where is it? What gear are you choosing that a "hp nut" doesn't? You loot a full set of class armor and every cle/dru/shm item in the Tower, so does he. You configure the BP differently, AND WHAT ELSE?

[Retron]

[Haiden]

Retron, in a long term group that does not stop to med or in a solo situation every shaman has the same mana regen and mana pool size has a much smaller effect. In raids, especially now, you have mana regen mechanics built into a lot of them and you have to maintain you mana pool for a much shorter time, so size has more of an effect. If I am going to solo or do a fast paced group I have spell canni up 100% of the time and use it often, but much like you mainly group I mainly raid and when event last 5-12 minutes the bigger your mana pool is the more you can cast without canni, therefore doing more for the raid. The AA canni is more than enough in current raid content with a big enough mana pool and enough HWis.

[Dakota]

It's been said enough times by others in this thread.
Between canni and Spiritual channeling, for a shaman, HP is mana.

You'll die all the times from running out of HPs. You'll never die from running out of mana.