What is the future of the shaman?

[Zeone]

No but it would be nice to actually be able to help dps during some fights. I love healing and all but it would also be nice to be able to help take the mob down. Aslong as my grp is healed and the MT is good sometimes i find myself able to cast a few nukes/dots during fights. Im not the only shaman/healer that is finding that we are able too. All i am saying it would be nice to be able to help out =p

[Ughbash]

[Samanna]

I think the main difference is that your contributions don't show up on everyone's parser as attributable to you. That seems to be more of an ego thing. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm just sayin'.

[Yesak]

Well, it is hard to figure out how much help you're doing even with parses because you have to break it down quite a bit. The general rule of thumb is: shaman help melee DPS. But how much? Well, that depends on the melee you are helping. If they suck and dont use their discs to line up with epic click and 3rd spire, you are losing quite a bit of DPS. Now, with a good melee DPS, the attributable DPS increase to whatever the shaman is doing spikes when they line things up right. And THAT is my biggest complaint. Our DPS is VERY VERY VERY situational. If we are not in a good situation, the DPS we can do is almost negligible. I dont know about the rest of you, but I RARELY found myself in the best of all situations where my DPS contribution would be at it's most useful. I do the best I can in the situations I find myself in. And in a less than ideal situation of a mostly caster group our DPS contributions are horrid. That is why I want some sort of DPS for US that we can use in ALL situations that would be worth doing.

And for the record, yes, ego does come into play for some people on this topic. For me, it is not so much ego as wanting to feel useful in all situations. That is why I gave the fixes I did. I dont think many of them are OMG powerful that will boost our DPS by a huge amount. Just something to make me feel useful is all. That is all I really want

[Kumudil]

[dohrian]

[Kumudil]

Grouper here, have only RK II so get 1 % more out of champion.

[dohrian]

[Yesak]

Basically the breakdown that Kum did is exactly why I think we should get a boost to personal DPS. The breakdown of exactly how much we help gets tricky as you have to break it down to very small bits to really know how much you are really helping. *shrugs* Almost impossible to parse because our DPS is ENTIRELY contingent upon what OTHER people do. Say your melee go afk for half the fight or the rogue forgets to backstab or monk hits wrong disc or if ANY of them have basically no endurance because they just died. Just too many variables.

[Ughbash]

[Kumudil]

[Kumudil]

Last question to dps and contributed dps: whats a groupshaman supposed to do, who cannot hit 3 meelegroups?

[Brohg]

A group shaman is expected to not have the same demands on their spell bar, and so be able to use a pair of dots to complement Bite

[Yesak]

You can spew numbers till you're blue in the face but the facts are that they dont matter unless OTHER people are on the same page as you and are trying as much as you are. You can assume lynx adds X DPS but theory is all it is. You can do the SAME exact thing over 100 raids and your contributed DPS will be quite different each time because OTHER people are not doing the exact SAME thing each time.

As for group shaman, load some nukes or DoTs and try and convince yourself that the DPS you're doing with them means much of anything. If your group kinda sucks then it might be noticeable. Otherwise, cast slow and lynx and grab a beer.

I think it is funny that no one is responding to my ranting. I get a kick out of it anyway, even if no one listens

[Ughbash]

[Finori]

[Kumudil]

[Ughbash]

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

[Finori]

[Brohg]

Auspice might stack, it's not a shortbuff. Has that been tested?

[Ughbash]

Was under the impression Auspice did stack.

Grrr so now I have to get off my ass and finish my shaman epic, and then convince a ranger friend to go to test too.

[Finori]

[ariowen]

Auspice is a shortbuff box aa.

[Haiden]

Interesting parse, but how much does it add if that same melee is running full disc? I would also run it on a class other than a Ranger maybe a true melee, I would guess it is a far larger addition to their DPS.

[Ughbash]

I ran a parse of my monk attacking test 85 from the rear.

Buffs were raid buffs (minus champion), which included rank 3 of haste, Strength of tracker, Yowl of Predator, and mammoth strength with 12 percent clicky overhaste. I used Zan Fi (monk AA) and Speed Focus (monk Disc).

/G Test Eighty Five in 17785s, 85267k @4794dps --- Eaglese 85267k @4794dps
18 percent of hits were criticals.

I will edit this post when I get the chance to retest it adding the 2.0 click (I went ahead and finished 2.0 this week).

/G Test Eighty Five in 38008s, 208676k @5490dps --- Eaglese 208676k @5490dps
18.8 percent of crits were criticals.

So this increased dps by 14.5 percent (admittedly MUCH less then I expected). What really shocked me is that the increase in criticals went up less then 1 percent in real numbers and an increase of 4.4 percent of the 18 percent.

Now auspice of the hunter at its highest level increases chance to crit by supposedly 165% as compared to the 65% that Ruchu alone does. Which should increase the DPS, also classes with hihger crit rates such as berserker adn warriosr shoud benifit more.

I will try to get another parse done with Champion and Panther the monk, though I sadly can't get one wiht full burn stuff (zerker adn ranger stuff).

[Ughbash]

The numbers on my previous parse seemed strange to me, so I looked into things in a little more detail.

Without Epic Click Max normal hit 596, max critical hit 1780, Avg Critical hit 1200.

Now with a 110 percent modifier you would EXPECT that with epic running you would get max normal hit 596, Max Critical hit of 3738 and avg critical hit of approx 2520 (depending on how fero 7 stacks with min hits that could be off).

However my max critical hit on close to a 12 hour parse was 2395 with an average critical of 1640. This is WAY less then we would expect.

I Suspect that the Shaman epic is only modifying the crit from the RAW damage, not counting any bonus damage like Champions (or zanfi which I used). If thats the case then you got hosed, if that is not the case something is wrong with your epic click.

I will try to get a parse this weekend with the number for max crit with and without Mammoth strength, Champion etc. to see if this makes the numbers return their expected values but no promises.

[Samanna]

Your parsing is appreciated.

[Yesak]

Ugh, I think your parses will confirm that people have been misguided in their thoughts that the shaman epic click is extremely powerful. While very useful, it is not an awe inspiring thing anymore.

Shaman buffs/clicks help melee DPS, but by how much? No one seems to know for sure. So keep those parses coming!

[Finori]

[Ughbash]

[Ughbash]

[Finori]

[Ughbash]

OK quick parse here as a baseline.

0 Buffs
All gear other than CorpseHook removed (it is in primary) (sadly when making room for gear I destroyed bio orb so some punches are also included but they SHOULD be less damage).

Max normal hit 412.
Max Crit Hit 1215.
3.8% of hits were criticals.

After removing the 20 damage bonus I get 1195/392 = 3.05 based on just vetrans wrath.

Will try to add in just Shamn epic some other time which SHOULD move it to 4.15 Multiple. Predicted max hit of 392*4.15+20 = 1646.8. If it winds up lower then this you serously need to complain.

And just for laughs my dps was 469 with speed focus. Will have to see how much epic boosts it.

Point is though, parses convinced me, Shaman Epic is not anywhere near as good as I thought.

[Brohg]

You have no shield, shrink rod, tradeskill trophy for offhand?

[Ughbash]

[Ughbash]

No buffs other then Shaman epic 2.0

Max hit Normal 412.
Max hit Crit 1667.

If Damage bonus counts as a multiplier for Epic I would expect Epic to have added 412 * 1.1 or 453.2 to my previous max hit of 1215. 1215 +453.2 = 1668.2 Close enough for government work.

So now that we know it does include damage bonus and that it is additive not multiplicative with other modifiers to Crit Damage.

My next parse will be with Champions. I want to see if the 110 modifier of epic is based off the max normal hit, or the max normal hit as modified by champions.

Mammoths str 2.
Max normal hit 439
Max Critical hit 1313.

Would APPEAR that mammoth strength is giving the 7 percent modifier to the base damage but not the damage bonus. (412-20)*1.07 +20 = 439.44

However with the critical 1215 *1.07 should only have reached 1300 not 1313. Unsure where the extra 13 damage came from.

Mammoth strength 2 and Shaman Epic.
Max Normal Hit 439.
Max Critical Hit 1779..
1779 -1313 = 466 So it would APPEAR that we are already loosing some on Shamn Epic.
1313 (previous max hit) + (439 x 1.1) = 1796. Hmm but if we put in our EXPECTED value rather then parsed value for Mammoth str critical, it matches out very close 1300 + (439 x 1.1) = 1782.

I think we really need to have Devs look into how this stacks adn how it is supposed to because parsing is not matching expected results.

[Samanna]

If you list all the pertinent info in one post, I'll make a chart.

[Kumudil]