TOP 10 2009

[Kumudil]

Would it make sense to work together to create a top 10 List of thinks, we would the devs to look at?
Would there be a CC who than will forward that to the devs?

I frequent also other classboards, on some of them I see a constant work on such a list and the replies of the devs reported back what they think about those points.

I would have some points to ask by myself. Even an answer like "working as intended no changes will happen" to most points would be better than not knowing if the devs are aware about and keep hoping for changes.

Even if on averange the members of the class think that we are in a good shape, we may can agree that it would be useful to get some issues looked at.

______________________________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________________________

To give an overview of the thread, in this area I will keep a sumup of candidates for the Top10 list, for now without any specific order

- ward of restoration (doesn't stack with defense AA, doesn't trigger as it might should)
- single hot casttime (when mainhealing challenging content there's near to no chance to reapply caused by the long casttime)
- Third Spire (seems to be far below where it might should be)
- heal over time fell behind with healrevamp, is the actual state of those where it should be?
- pets (was it intentional that the shaman pets falled behind in dps?)
- casttime revamp (have shamans been left off by intention, or has it just been an oversight?)
- pack of Aina (there is a question to ask isn't it?)



______________________________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________________________

An example for a canditate to the Top 10 would be "Ward of Restoration":
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
what is the situation now:

shaman have 2 self-only defensive abilities
1. Ancestral Guard (AA)
2. Ward of Restoration (Spell)


Here is what it looks like now:

»Ancestral Guard«
Slot 1: Mitigate Melee Damage by 75% until 23000 absorbed

» Ward of Restoration Rk. II «
Slot 1: Mitigate Melee Damage by 10% until 500 absorbed
Slot 2: Cast Spell "Restoration Effect" after fade or cancel
Mana: 878

Spellslot data for » Restoration Effect «
Slot 1: Increase Hitpoints v2 by 2030 per tick
Duration: 00:00:24 (4 ticks)
______________________________________________________________________
what is the problem with that:

Ward of Restoration has 2 issues:

1. Stacking:
Slot 1: Mitigate Melee Damage -> prevents it to be used when needed most: under defense. If you cast first the AA than the spell, the spell will not land. If you cast first the spell than the AA, the AA will eliminate the spell without any hot triggered.

2. trigger from rune on fade doesn't work as expected.

Slot 2: Cast Spell Restoration Effect after fade

"Cast Spell xxx after fade" does generally not work as one would expect:
If at the moment the rune fades the player is stunned, the trigger does not work, the spell is not cast.
If at the moment the rune fades the player is casting, the trigger does not work, the spell is not cast.

If anyone who can cast selfonly-spells with rune-effects is under meele attack, its highly likely that he is casting something when the rune fades.

______________________________________________________________________

what wold be a fix to the problem:

the easiest fix would be:
take away the rune completely and make it an self only instant heal over time:

» Ward of Restoration Rk. II «
Slot 6: Increase Hitpoints v2 by 2030 per tick
Mana: 878
Target Type: Self
Skill: Abjuration
Cast Time: 0.50 sec
Recast Time: 15.0 sec
Duration: 00:00:24 (4 ticks)

I would really like to have the effect on slot 6, as there are only Beast-self-only-effects, so no stacking issues in the future. It would make this defense ability stack with normal heal over times.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Its broken now for about 18 month, we know its broken, do the devs consider this broken also?
If they know about, did they ever said something? If so what? Even if it is "it stays like that" and I kew about it, I could scrap that spell and get over it.

Last week I tried to send the above via PM on the soe-board to a dev. I have the feeling that this was not the best way. If I imagine how many PMs they might get over there, its likely to not be recognized that way.


Edit: addet a chapter with an idea how this could be fixed.

[Tharkis]

Sure if we want to, we're free to do a top10. The reason we havent is the whole "top 10" for each class has sort of run by the wayside and isnt really a maintained list anywhere anymore. Some classes keep maintaining it, but it's not an official "list" on the SoE forums anymore.

Since this wasnt something that they were specifically asking for, I didnt see any reason to maintain a list here or on eqlive, but we're perfectly capable of doing it anyways =)

[Brohg]

It was never actually requested by developers. The top10s were dreamed up by the community relations folks (Halflings on eq live boards) and never well respected by people with the power to do anything about them.

[Kumudil]

How big is the likehood to get an answer if the shaman as a community places a set of questions via a CL? Is there any difference in likehood to a single PM send by a single shaman on the SOE-board?

[Kumudil]

another possible point on this list would be: single hot casttime

Priests healing models:

If a priest would have to heal for a long fight lets say 2 minutes, what would he push out for sustained heals?
__________________________________

Cleric: hot, Promised, direct heal

Devout Elixir Rk. II
1: Increase Hitpoints v2 by 1949 per tick
Casting Time: 4 seconds
Duration: 4 ticks

Devout Light Rk. II
1: Increase Hitpoints by 5832
Casting Time: 3.75

Promised Recuperation Rk. II
Promised Recuperation Trigger (1: Increase Hitpoints by 12563)
Casting Time: 0.25
Duration: 3 ticks

The weave:
Hot+promised on inc, chaincast direct heal
reapply promised when fired
Hot can be reapplied when cast started 4 seconds before promised fires

__________________________________

Druid: Promised, direct heal

Promised Reknit Rk. II
Promised Reknit Trigger (1: Increase Hitpoints by 11307)
Casting Time: 0.25

Granvida Rk. II
1: Increase Hitpoints by 5249
Casting Time: 3.75

The weave:
promised on inc, chaincast direct heal
reapply promised when fired

__________________________________

Shamnan Hot + direct heal

Halcyon Whisper Rk. II
1: Increase Hitpoints v2 by 1647 per tick
Casting Time: 6
Duration: 4 ticks

Dannal's Mending Rk. II
1: Increase Hitpoints by 5249
Casting Time: 3.75

The weave:
Hot on inc, chaincast direct heal

What happens after Hot runs out the first time? Or you burn your emergency heals or tank goes splat
6 seconds casttime for the hot, after worn foci we are around 4 seconds + 1.5 seconds cooldown + atleast 2 seconds castime for the next Dannal to land.
That's around 8 seconds or 4 meelerounds befor next direct heal lands.

This part needs correction:
6 seconds casttime for the hot, after quickbuff we are at 3 seconds + 1.5 seconds cooldown + atleast 2 seconds castime for the next Dannal to land.
That's around 7 seconds or 3 meelerounds befor next direct heal lands.
Thats atleast one full meeleround more than the other healing models have to endure.


Promised can be reapplied at any time, cast + cooldown together is below 2 seconds
The cleric can do his hot right befor next promise fires and so he can keep up his hot.

Here is the main reason a shaman can't mainheal content similar to the other priests.
When my group broke into T5, any single trash lasted longer than one Hot. I would have to burn AA-heal or AI on any single trash just to get
this one killed, with 0 abilities left for emergencies like a coupe of lucky rounds of the mob. If you need to burn your emergency heals just to
do your regular job, you are above your abilies.

As we have no other secondary heal we can use regulary, the single-hots casttime must get down to the casttime to promised, to be able to mainheal similar content.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The problem: casttime too long of the heal over time, no chance to reapply

The question would be: As all priest should be able to mainheal similar content, is it possible to get the single hot reduced in casttime?

[Ughbash]

[Kumudil]

Thank you for pointing out. Forgot that. Still more than double the time of the others second heal ability.
And when one meele round is taking close to half of your tanks HP, one meele-round more or less is about surviving or dieing.
The hot seems to take forever when you try to reapply it while the tank is dieing.

I will correct the Error but still feel there should be done something. If its not more than the averange feeling there's an issue, it shouldn't make it on the list.
I do fine with the merc when our cleric isn't on, but than the statement that all priest should be able to mainheal similar content must be scrapped.

Direct heals back to back lands about any 4 seconds or 2 meelerounds.

Direct heal / promised / direct heal is 1 meeleround more within between. So between 2 direct heals you have 3 instead of 2 meelerounds. You need a tank who savely survive 3 meelerounds.

Direct heal / heal over time / direct heal is 2 meeleround more within between. So between 2 direct heals you have 4 instead of 2 meelerounds. You need a tank who savely survive 4 meelerounds. You need a 33% better geared tank to make it throught.

That is a huge difference, if you try to mainheal challenging content.

[Kumudil]

Next point for Top 10 could be: Third spire .. details on the thread

I think to remember to have seen a devs statement that group-dps-spires should give around 150 dps to any one hit who can make use out of this.
I have no link to back this up, anyone else has seen something like that and remeber where?

[Kumudil]

Focus for Heal over time?

With the heal revamp of the direct heals, the Hots fell behind by far. If the healers should be able to heal similar content, and the upgrade in the direct heal was the main reason for the stagnation in dps, shouldn't be the "heal per second" wer can push out over a period regulary close to the druids?


The candidates:
______________________________________________________________________________
Cleric: hot, Promised, direct heal

Devout Elixir Rk. II
1: Increase Hitpoints v2 by 1949 per tick
Casting Time: 4 seconds
Duration: 4 ticks


Devout Light Rk. II
1: Increase Hitpoints by 5832
Casting Time: 3.75


Promised Recuperation Rk. II
Promised Recuperation Trigger (1: Increase Hitpoints by 12563)
Casting Time: 0.25
Duration: 3 ticks


The weave:
Hot+promised on inc, chaincast direct heal
reapply promised when fired
Hot can be reapplied when cast started 4 seconds before promised fires

__________________________________

Druid: Promised, direct heal

Promised Reknit Rk. II
Promised Reknit Trigger (1: Increase Hitpoints by 11307)
Casting Time: 0.25


Granvida Rk. II
1: Increase Hitpoints by 5249
Casting Time: 3.75

The weave:
promised on inc, chaincast direct heal
reapply promised when fired

__________________________________

Shamnan Hot + direct heal

Halcyon Whisper Rk. II
1: Increase Hitpoints v2 by 1647 per tick
Casting Time: 6
Duration: 4 ticks


Dannal's Mending Rk. II
1: Increase Hitpoints by 5249
Casting Time: 3.75


The weave:
Hot on inc, chaincast direct heal
__________________________________


now lets presume Hot-casttime identic to Promise: 0.5 sec and than try to calculate a period of 3 minutes
Theoretic calculation: Hot tics always, Direct heal backtoback 4 seconds, Promised always running, healcrits 30% of the time, healfocus 55%=medium 27.5%, promise actually 24 sec

Cleric:
Devout Elixir Rk. II 30 tics : 58470 HP 30% crits: 76011
Devout Light Rk. II 45 casts: 262440 : 30% crits, 27.5% focus: 434994
Promised Recuperation Rk. II : 7.5 x 12563 : 94222 30% crit : 122489

633494 / 180 sec : 3519 HP/second

Druid:
Granvida Rk. II 45 cast: 236205 HP : 30% crits, 27.5% focus: 383833
Promised Reknit Rk. II: 7.5 * 11307 : 84802 30% crit: 110243

494076 / 180 sec : 2744 HP/second

Shaman:
Dannal's Mending Rk. II 45 cast: 236205 HP : 30% crits, 27.5% focus: 383833
Halcyon Whisper Rk. II 30 Tic: 49410 30% crit: 64233

448066 / 180 sec : 2489 HP/second

shaman base healing using direct heal + second ability (HOT) is 10% behind druids healing even if the casttime of HOT would be set to 0.5 seconds like promised

__________________________________


reflection:
druids Promised can overheal, but if it does it means mobs dps is below druids healing capacity and things are going well
War can't crit promised as much: I see this as part of tank balancing not priest balancing, war have better defense abilities instead of it


__________________________________

__________________________________

Fast crosscheck grouphealing:
Druid:
Lunulation Rk. II
Slot 1: Increase Hitpoints by 4772
Cast Time: 4.50 sec
Recast Time: 12.0 sec

lets say medium 1 cast per 15 seconds : 12 * 4772 30% crit 27.5% focus :: 94915 HP per 3 min
527 hp/second

shaman:
Shadow of Renewal Rk. II
Slot 1: Increase Hitpoints v2 by 1351 per tick : 30% crit

292 HP/second

Grouphealing druid is capaple to heal 80% more per second, a Focus to the hot wouldn't harm either here


__________________________________


All calulations based on 55% groupfocus, wiht raidfocus grouphealing druid is far better off

__________________________________
__________________________________


Is this picture close to reality? Is there anything I haven't seen?
If the picture is right, is this the picture the devs have and where they like it to be?