Shaman/Bard/???? 3 box help

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Shaman/Bard/???? 3 box help

Postby mikey2505 » Wed May 17, 2006 5:46 am

Hi, i have a question, I intend to start a 3 box combo and will be playing a shaman, bard and i was thinking tank...now i realise that most peoples chioce would be sk or maybe palladin but i was wondering if a warrior would work as well? the third really needs to be a tank as i have to keep him the same lvl as my main group.

The reason i choose warrior is because they have the best dps and mitigation of all the plate classes, and as he will only be getting healed by a shammy the more mitigation the better, i was hoping that throwing a bard into the mix would eliminate a lot of the need for the sk FD pull, snare, offtank if he absolutely has to etc, lets face it, nobody pulls better than bards.

So what do you guys think? what sort of content would these 3 be able to trio? or possibly group with a cleric friend if the heals get to much

Lastly i have 2 computers to run 3 toons on so what do you guys think would be best? warrior and shaman as main toons on seperate comps and bard sitting /melody untill needed for pulling/offtanking etc?

Well thanks for reading and sorry about my apalling lack of punctuation, all replies are greatfully recieved
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Postby Zarzac » Wed May 17, 2006 6:07 am

Ok why are you including a bard in a 3 box?
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Postby mikey2505 » Wed May 17, 2006 8:36 am

bard will be there to provide pulling/snares/manaregen/hp regen/ds/haste/attack etc etc etc
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Postby Boleslav » Wed May 17, 2006 9:29 am

Any plate tank should work for what you have in mind. You will be limited by healing and DPS.

Warrior DPS is pretty good compared to Knight classes, but not so good as to be a deciding factor. Also, Warriors do have better mitigation, but if the Shaman is the only healer I bet a Paladin will let you take on bigger mobs than the Warrior, as the Paladin can help with healing.

A bard can do most of the things that a Shaman likes having a Shadowknight around for, minus the tanking part. So since you love your bard, a SK doesn't make a ton of sense.

If you have a cleric available frequently the Warrior starts to make more sense as the duplicate healing of the Paladin will not be needed as much and the extra mitigation of the Warrior can really shine. But if you plan to 3-box most of the time I would lean toward the Paladin.

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Postby mikey2505 » Wed May 17, 2006 9:37 am

First off, thanks very much for the reply its much appreciated.

So how about if the bard got replaced by a necro? would this work better do you think? im thinking pullling with necro or pet pulling with dogdog, necro certainly doesnt lack for dps and can twitch and suplemental heal and snare etc, would this make the 3box more efficient do you think? oh and rezzes to

Thanks again for the reply and hoping to hear from you again
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Postby Katt » Wed May 17, 2006 9:50 am

mikey2505 wrote:bard will be there to provide pulling/snares/manaregen/hp regen/ds/haste/attack etc etc etc


Bards certainly do bring a lot of utility to any group and are certainly worth considering, but you do need to be aware of the drawbacks before committing to that route. I box a Shaman and Warrior, with the third slot being filled by a Necromancer, Ranger or (currently being levelled up) Cleric depending on what I want to do. I do have a 70 Bard who is also on my third account but I tend not to include her in the mix and the following are a few thoughts on why this is.

1. Bards are great for all of the reasons you mentioned, but the main reason I would slot in a bard over another class is for the unsurpassed pulling abilities. Personally I just don't find a use for that on a regular basis in my group. When three boxing I want to either kill specific mobs (named) or pull as fast as possible to simply gain XP. In neither case so far have I done content where a Bard is neccessary. The spots you are considering may differ from mine but for me I can pull with my Warrior or Ranger quite adequately for my needs. If your plan however is to run all over EQ and cherrypick named, doing impossible pulls through dozens of mobs then bards defintely have an edge - but the question is how often would you do that, and would it warrant the investment of time levelling and gearing up a bard to the point where it was possible.

2. You can invest in AA to prevent your Bard missing notes (Bardic fizzle, it stops /melody), but until you do you will constantly have to pay attention to the bard and restart your /melody song line a few times each minute. This wasn't an issue for me because I levelled up the bard before I started boxing but for someone levelling up their characters it would be a constant annoyance until those AA were achieved. Not a show stopper but something to consider.

3. If you want to offtank adds then Bards are not the best for three (that spring to mind) reasons. They do not mitigate damage well - I suspect a Monk would tank better. They don't have innate tools for generating aggro (no Bazu Bellow or such) and certainly their songs won't hold a mob on them. As another meleer you would need to constantly reposition them. Certainly throwing gear at your bard would cover the first two points, but to be honest whilst you mention offtanking I'd suggest you think more 'mezzing' if you do go the bard route and get an add.

4. Low DPS. Whilst Bards contribution towards overall DPS in a full group is significant, with only two other people in the group there is only so much mileage that the overhaste/Damage focus song is going to do. Yes I know that vastly oversimplifies a bards contribution but when running three characters you are not going to have anything like the flexibility that a dedicated Bard would have.

For any Bards out there please don't take the above comments the wrong way - I mean them only in the context of a three-boxed character, where only a small proportion of a players time is spent concentrating on their character. Mikey, I realise that this doesn't address your questions, but I felt that these were points you should consider. This is not to say that a Bard would not be the perfect member of your trio - your capabilities at boxing may far outclass my own, you may have access to equipment above the level of my humble Bard, and I do run my two or three characters on a single PC which also has an impact.

Moving back to your actual question - As I mentioned above I too chose a Warrior and am very please with that choice. Low DPS (about 120 for me without panther, etc) but very durable. I seldom pop the defensive abilities but it's really nice to have them when I want to handle a tough named. For my third spot I tend to use my new Ranger. She has around 80 AA which pretty much completes her bow skills, and whilst even with a semi-decent bow she's not amazing DPS she has the huge advantage of being completely AFK DPS. Plus popping Trueshot for double bow damage on named is nice burst damage. A little extra second-hand DPS through damage shields and attack buffs doesn't go astray either :)

My Necromancer is great DPS, a very capable puller and has the ability to rez me if needed, but I still don't use her as much simply because I like an easy life and switching back to a third character every few seconds (in her case to DoT, DoT, Feign Death) seems too much like hard work for more than the odd named, chuckle. She can pull, snare, DPS, Rez, has a pet as an extra Panther target and can FD so that if things go wrong I only need to worry about two characters.

My Cleric who is not yet fully levelled is obviously good for HP buffs, spell haste and heals. Very low DPS of course, but whilst mobs may not go down as quickly there is little that you cannot handle with a tank, slower, and two solid healing classes.

Just a few thoughts, I hope somewhere in that ramble is omething of interest to you.
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Postby Katt » Wed May 17, 2006 10:26 am

mikey2505 wrote:First off, thanks very much for the reply its much appreciated.

So how about if the bard got replaced by a necro? would this work better do you think? im thinking pullling with necro or pet pulling with dogdog, necro certainly doesnt lack for dps and can twitch and suplemental heal and snare etc, would this make the 3box more efficient do you think? oh and rezzes to


Chuckle , interestingly enough my earlier posting was being written before you posted this comment, so hopefully some of the information I put in about a Necro answers these questions. the ONLY downside of a Necro is the neccessity to keep track of DoTs and refresh them.

Regarding pet pulling - the way that this works is that as long as the pet is green to the target mob it will not chain 'assist' aggro to surrounding mobs. Well that's not quite the whole story - if your pet dies then it does chain aggro, and that's where a Necromancer has several advantages. Firstly the pet is more likely to get back to you alive. Necro pets have higher HP than Shaman ones. Necromancers also get a pet buff that allows them to withstand a fixed number of blows before they take damage (the level 69 version is 4 blows I think). With a SoW'd, Buffed Necro pet you have a very good chance of reliable pulls. The biggest win however is that Necromancers can feign death. The necro should always FD before pet pulling, and that way even if the pet does die you still won't get aggro. I don't think you even need to stay FD for 2 minutes after the pet dies (certainly I never have).

Enjoy

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Postby Galelor » Wed May 17, 2006 11:39 am

really you can 3 box any class with a shaman. It mostly depends on what content you want to do. bards are very user reliant so you will be putting a lot of attention into them (i think this is why most people dislike boxing bards.) I think the bard/shaman/warrior is a good idea personally, if you can get by the bard being a handfull to box. warrior agro is so good now adays, with the right weapons/augs you can agro just as well as a knight (and they out dps knights on regular mobs.)

i would put a little more throught into which toons you run off which computer. i have found it best to run the puller (necro/bard/monk/ect.) alone on one computer, and switch off between tank/healer on the same computer. this decreases lag when pulling, allows you to pull while still tanking/healing, and allows you to mez + heal at the same time. It will save you deaths. (i have been reduced to boxing 4 max on one computer as the other one is mostly to outdated to run eq at this point. having the puller on the same computer has considerably slowed down my kill rate. I box shaman/pally/druid/necro.)

in terms of refreshing necro dot- that becomes almost no problem with some experiance in boxing a necro. I would run the necro on a solo comp if i could, due to the fd/agro/pulling issue though. there is a post around here i made about boxing tips, others added stuff in as well. It may be worth check it out.
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Postby Galelor » Wed May 17, 2006 11:45 am

this thread my help you decide.
http://crucible.samanna.net/viewtopic.php?t=1503
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Re: Shaman/Bard/???? 3 box help

Postby Scalia » Wed May 17, 2006 1:05 pm

mikey2505 wrote:So what do you guys think? what sort of content would these 3 be able to trio? or possibly group with a cleric friend if the heals get to much


I would think that the kind of contents that you may be able to three-box with this setup will heavily depend on the kind of gear you expect to get for your characters. Are we talking about basic Bazaar stuff, DON/GM cultural items, one groupable items or raid drops? Tanks are very gear dependent and if you don't expect to get higher level gear, perhaps a mage+pet might be a quicker/cheaper choice. On the other hand, watching the pet take the hits is not as satisfying as taking them "yourself".
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Postby Ughbash » Wed May 17, 2006 2:44 pm

I would think warrior would be better then paladni or SK if you used a bard or some otehr class for pull/snare.

However there is one caveat.

Aggro. You will need to make sure your warrior has good aggro, at a minimum Don Axes with enraging blow procs. If you are not going to have good aggro weapons and WA5 youwoudl be better usign a knight who can maintain aggro with spells.
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Postby Jerus » Wed May 17, 2006 3:58 pm

Ide go warrior or pally.. SK dont see a good reason over the other two. I would say warrior would be easier to get gear taht can handle tanking things for xp and such. Pallys can help heal/groupheal so can help a bit.

As for the whole bard in a 3 box. Im kinda a firm beleiver in that if the bard isnt your main it doesnt really belong in a 3 box. 3 box needs a slower/puler/tank/healer like all groups. As a main bard I put my bard in as 2-3 of those slots depending on whether i load up my rogue or shaman. Druid as healer alwasy though. But I really dont like to have him doing more than 2 roles. YOur main in a 3 box will usually be doing 2 of the roles while each other box fills 1. So for me bard does pulling/tanking usually and druid on heals shaman on slows. In your situation you would have shaman doing slower/healer and bard puller and you really need a tank for the third I would say pally so you get a little overlap on heals. Shaman is my overlap in mine for when druid goes oom cause i messed up.

Katt: you made some great points.. no offense taken to any of it... it takes alot of gear to tank/offtank and knowing your class and such. Its really hard to tank when i get 2 mobs while 2 boxing because it takes all my focus to keep one mob agro when 2 boxing.. if i mez one thats taking liek 2-3 songs out of rotation while boxing and thats not good for agro. DPS also can be made up by gear but again as an alt bard you would not be there unless you were a main ofa uber guild


Ide go pally =)
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Postby Krisia » Wed May 17, 2006 9:19 pm

I currently box a Mage, Shm and Pally. I then box with my fiancee who plays a Ranger, Druid and Beastlord. (Yes we're slightly psycho - it's ok) I also tried a warrior, but gave her up at level 54 because warriors are so AA/gear restrictive. I was looking at needing 600 or so AAs to be really effective in a raid/hard group situation. Plus, by adding the pally, it gave me an experience rez, minor healing ability and the virtue/symbol/brells line. The mage/ranger were our original toons so the other 4 were add ons. Each of our trio's can function independently when the other person is not online. After trying 2 of the plate classes, my vote would be for the Pally. (Oh and we looked at a bard in place of the beastlord, but you just can't justify losing the DPS. If it's mana regen you want - the BLs have the SA line)
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Postby Ughbash » Thu May 18, 2006 7:45 am

Hmm not sure I would say a warrior needs 600 AA.

To tank you basically need defensive AA, Hit POint AA, and WA5. More is good don't get me wrong, fero and Flurry will get you mroe aggro, but Defenisve AA and WA5 are yoru bread and butter.

No Matter what you tank with you will need those AA, though if you have a knight the 25 AA for WA5 is not as important, it still is nice.

*EDIT: the above is for group, for raid AET becomes mandatory, but for grouping in places such as RS where things are more controlled it can be delayed (though many warriors will say I am insane for saying that).
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Postby Galelor » Thu May 18, 2006 8:13 am

Ughbash wrote:Hmm not sure I would say a warrior needs 600 AA.

To tank you basically need defensive AA, Hit POint AA, and WA5. More is good don't get me wrong, fero and Flurry will get you mroe aggro, but Defenisve AA and WA5 are yoru bread and butter.

No Matter what you tank with you will need those AA, though if you have a knight the 25 AA for WA5 is not as important, it still is nice.

*EDIT: the above is for group, for raid AET becomes mandatory, but for grouping in places such as RS where things are more controlled it can be delayed (though many warriors will say I am insane for saying that).


i didn't get WA for my pally until 500+ AA. It is ok but has little effect on the agro i can generate since i can chain stun. But yes, no matter what plate tank you pick you are going to spend ~300 AA to max out tank AA stuff, and then another 300-400 AA on top of that to get all the must haves. BTW the AA that lets warriors call mobs back and fight to the death instead of fleeing is AWSOME, but it really encrouches on the usefullness of pallys/SKs when it comes to runners (stun/snare.)

if you can't decide between plate tanks and you like all 3. look at which it will be easier for you to get full cultural armor for. cult armor is better than nearly everything 1 groupable/nonraid when it is auged out correctly. full cult+AAs will let you tank DoD hard missions with a cleric or druid healing.
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Postby Scalia » Thu May 18, 2006 9:47 am

Krisia wrote:I currently box a Mage, Shm and Pally. ... I also tried a warrior, but gave her up at level 54 because warriors are so AA/gear restrictive. I was looking at needing 600 or so AAs to be really effective in a raid/hard group situation. Plus, by adding the pally, it gave me an experience rez, minor healing ability and the virtue/symbol/brells line.


Well, Paladins don't need to spend time on agro AAs or money on high-agro weapons since they have built-in agro generation. But other than that, wouldn't you need the same defensive AAs and the same type of gear for a Pally? And since they don't have Warriors' mitigation and HP, wouldn't you need even better HP/AC gear to compensate?

Come to think of it, since you have a Mage as well as a Pally, you may be a good person to ask at what level of HP/AC a Knight beats a Mage pet for tanking purposes, agro issues aside.
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Postby Kilgaroz » Thu May 18, 2006 2:02 pm

Bard/shm/war is my usualy hydra crew and I love it. I've made a few million in crystals and DoN cultural drops off of Nest missions with this setup and have done most of the DoD (mask) quests with the addition of a druid and a bst. To do it most efficiently, MQ2 is your friend, especially with the bard, as you can twist without having to worry about interrupts while you tab over to another toon. Set up a hotkey that activates your drum bandolier and HoS + mez to lock an add down, fire and forget mezzing (of a single target, any situation with multiple adds requires a lot of attention or more computer code than I have avaiable to me). I doubt that I'd have put this group together by design, it fell into my lap, but I don't regret it in the least. Bard snare sucks, especially if you're trying to chain pull, but with Call of the Challenge available to warriors, it's not as big an issue as it would have been in days of yore.
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Postby Ughbash » Thu May 18, 2006 2:11 pm

Kilgaroz wrote:Bard/shm/war is my usualy hydra crew and I love it. I've made a few million in crystals and DoN cultural drops off of Nest missions with this setup and have done most of the DoD (mask) quests with the addition of a druid and a bst. To do it most efficiently, MQ2 is your friend, especially with the bard, as you can twist without having to worry about interrupts while you tab over to another toon. Set up a hotkey that activates your drum bandolier and HoS + mez to lock an add down, fire and forget mezzing (of a single target, any situation with multiple adds requires a lot of attention or more computer code than I have avaiable to me). I doubt that I'd have put this group together by design, it fell into my lap, but I don't regret it in the least. Bard snare sucks, especially if you're trying to chain pull, but with Call of the Challenge available to warriors, it's not as big an issue as it would have been in days of yore.


Hmm correct me if I am wrong, but can't MQ2 ( I assuem macro quest 2) and a hunting program of some sort get you banned?

If a person can legitamitely box a bard shaman tank, I would say go warrior. If you drop the bard for any of the reasons mentioned earlier in the thread, and replace with a non snaring class, I would go with SK rather then warrior. Call of challenge can be resisted. With my monk/shaman combo depending where i fight lack of effective snare can be my biggest worry.
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Postby Valdemar » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:49 am

Mikey, as Katt pointed out, the reason to box a bard is primarily for unsurpassed single pulling and utility. If you aren't going to do a lot of exploring and dungeon crawls, then a Bard is a weak asset. However, if you want to explore and you plan on breaking difficult camps, then Bard ftw. They can also be quite useful in root/rot camps - unlike some of the more popular tanks to box with a Shaman.

A couple of points of popular wisdom I'd like to contend with, which you might find helpful from someone who regularly boxes a Shaman/Bard.

1) Bard's can tank.

Their innate avoidance and mitigation are modestly better than all the chain classes and they are modestly better at DPS than PAL/SKs. I put them on a rough par with Monks in their tanking ability and consider them roughly equal to PAL/SK in DPS. Of course this assumes that said classes are comparably geared and AA'd. They enable more content than having a chain class melee but you'll probably be limited in what you can tank until the Bard gets geared well. If you plan on having the Bard as your plate tank, then I strongly recommend that you lie, cheat, and steal to get heavy damage proc weapons. Get your Epic and add a damage proc aug. In concert, invest in Weapon Affinity AAs early. These will significantly up your melee DPS. This avenue of heavy procs and Weapon Affinity is better than Combat Fury AAs at 55 for dramatic DPS increases. Yes, Weapon Affinity AA is available at 55. The Epic alone will nearly double your song damage in melee due to the all-instruments mod and obviates the need to switch out instruments and weapons all the time. So we're talking about a single heavy damage proc weapon, your Epic with a damage proc aug and some Weapon Affinity AAs at 55 to dramatically increase DPS. When you look at it, its not that tall an order.

2) Bard's are NOT very demanding to box.

Not for me. I use /melody and hot-key macros (in game hot-key scripts, not ban-able third party automation scripts) to help. But frankly, I don't give a shit if my song twist gets interrupted while I'm casting on my Shaman during the fight. At worst, I loose a few secs of LOW DPS songs while I'm malo/slow/dotting. Big deal. When I switch back, I just restart the /melody. Not to mention that more often than not, it doesn't get interrupted and /melody is happily twisting away. The only time that boxing a bard has required any more attention on the Bard than I would have spent boxing a Ranger or Paladin, is when I had multiples in camp. In short, I have extensive experience boxing with a Ranger, Paladin, Enchanter, and Mage also and I don't spend anymore time on the Bard screen than I did on the Ranger or Paladin screen. I don't aggro kite, chant kite, or charm kite on a regular basis while boxing; I do those only in extremis. Otherwise, I root park and mez to get things back from sideways. Pull, hit auto attack, hit whatever /melody key has your damage twist of choice, switch to Shaman. Thats about the same workload I would have on any other class I've boxed.

Now, a Shaman/Bard bring all the four basic requirements of a balanced group, namely: pulling/tanking/slowing/healing. However, the Bard is weak DPS and not very resiliant as a tank. HP buffing is also weak, but the main thing this team lacks is firepower. DPS. It is also nice if you can add in better HP buffing, or ports, rez and the like, but DPS is what's most needed. An additional limitation is that this third member needs to be as bot-able as possible since you'll have to concentrate your time on the Bard and Shaman. Considering these, there are several classes that fit the bot-able DPS machine category. They are in order of sustained firepower: Mage, Wizard, Necro, Druid, Ranger, Enchanter, BL. (Please feel free to argue my rankings). Any and all of these would be viable and make life grand. The question over which of them to choose comes down to a trade off between firepower and utility/buffing. For example, Druids, BLs, Rangers, and Enchanters are not the DPS you'll get from the aforementioned Mage classes (Mage, Necro, Wiz), but you get much better utility and buffing from them in exchange. I've noticed the point of departure between those who choose the big 3 DPS classes (Mage, Necro, Wiz) verses those who choose the lesser DPS buff/util machines seems to be along the line of high-end powergamers (DPS blasters) and casual raiders with limited play time (lesser DPS buff bots), but that's not hard and fast. I fall into the latter category and I box a Shaman/Bard or duo with the BArd when my wife is playing her (It's her character), and we're looking to add a third. We just can't decide ourselves. The wife has a Mage, Enchanter, Ranger, and a Druid to bring in, but the problem is choosing raw power or more buff/utility.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Shaman/Bard/???? 3 box help

Postby Bearskin » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:40 pm

Go Mage. You get way more dps then a tank class can provide. Bard provides the best and fastest pulling without the sweat of worrying how to pull something. Bards will not get nerfed as pullers. Mage pets can tank, sometimes better then my J5 tank merc. Bards are not the best dps but without even watching your bard, the bard can boost dps for your tanks ( pets included ), mage nuke dps and swarm pets which allows the mage to use a special spell to boost his dps even more. Bard and Mage imho is just a win/win class when added to a group and only after using a mage, only other class I would consider is a wizard. Just my two cents.
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Postby kerneth » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:46 pm

I run a Shaman with a Melee-DPS mercenary, a Bard with a Melee-DPS mercenary, and a Warrior with a Cleric Mercenary.
Run all mercenaries on balanced during trash. then the DPSers on burn. and the cleric on reactive during named/rares
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