3 Box team going through reform

Help and information specific to the above aspects of play at all levels.

Moderators: Druid Mods, Paladin Mods, Shaman Mods

3 Box team going through reform

Postby Chromatic » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:26 am

I Currently have a 85 Bard (Rk3 songs and some raid gear) and 83 Magician. Now my third box is a 80 Necromancer and annoying to have to switch over to him to cast 6 dots while I neglect the Mage's nukes (both on same screen), added with me having to switch to the bard every minute to recast Requiem (slow).

I've been considering taking out the Necro out of the mix and replacing him with any of the following and would greatly appreciate advice on these classes (other than mage), since its been a long while since I last played them (GOD-era):

-A second Magician
-Shaman
-Wizard

Any and all advice, even if it is just you thinking out-loud(or in this case thinking while typing).
Chromatic
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:12 am


Bard Main
Magician - Alt/Box
Necromancer - Alt/Box

Re: 3 Box team going through reform

Postby riou » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:06 am

Of those id either go with Wizard or Mage, leaning more towards the extra mage, another op pet that stuns (air pet), plus its the highest "afk" dps of those choices
riou
 
..
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 9:28 am
Server: The Rathe


Paladin Main
Monk - Alt/Box

Re: 3 Box team going through reform

Postby Chromatic » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:48 am

Just thinking here, but I thought with a Shaman I could Slow for 6mins or whatever and not have to worry about interrupting my bards melody in order to cast that. But it is nice that it reminds me to cast grubers crescendo after i cast requiem.

I don't know much about shaman adps, just that it would benefit the mage pet more.
Chromatic
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:12 am


Bard Main
Magician - Alt/Box
Necromancer - Alt/Box

Re: 3 Box team going through reform

Postby Thessiuss » Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:39 am

I don't know if you use this same technique, but a good trick i use for boxing (pally, chanter, cleric) is:

Line 1: /pause 35, /cast 1
Line 2: /pause 35, /cast 2
Line 3: /pause 35, /cast 3
Line 4: /pause 20, /cast 4
Line 5: [some form of audio trigger]

Technically the /pause # needs to change a bit for each spell, but i have 2 hotkeys that line up 8 spells in a row with an audio trigger telling me to pop over and hit the next one :p. Granted it's not 100% efficient and lag does play a bit with the /pause. However, boxing a necro or wizzie i've found to be very simple using this general idea.

IMO go with the 2nd mage so that you can stagger casting (from recast timers). Makes it easier to box :).
Thessiuss
mentula
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 8:05 pm


Paladin Main
Enchanter - Alt/Box
Bard - Alt/Box

Re: 3 Box team going through reform

Postby elryche » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:28 pm

i 3 box either shaman/mage/mage or bard/mage/mage along with 2 tank mercs and cleric merc. either combo works quite well, how ever i will say that the bard combo is better at breaking camps and the shaman combo is better when extra healing is needed. the main thing is setting up hotkeys and the use of /melody on the bard.

both my mages have identical hotkey set ups (and identical spell books) just to make it easier. my most used hotkey is "nuke 1".

/pause 60, /pet attack
/pause 55, /cast 1
/pause 55, /cast 1
/pause 55, /cast 1
/pause 55, /cast 1

i load what ever nuke is the best in spell slot 1 and get nearly 5 minutes of unsupervised dps from both mages this way. you could very easily make a similar one for your necro that has him casting 4 or 5 different dots if you wanted to keep him.
elryche
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:50 pm


Shaman Main

Re: 3 Box team going through reform

Postby Kumudil » Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:35 pm

Another mage.

Slow is about 8-14% dps reduction on the mob. 1 Magepet is about 30% dps-reduction. Second magepet is about 30% dps reduction from remaining 70% dps, which would be 21% to initial mobs dps.

So magepet + slow is around 40% dps reduction, 2 magepets around 50% dps reduction.
Dps from a second mage is by far better than dps of a shaman (including personal+contributed).

I tried shaman mage mage bard. Than I thougt about it. Now when I am out boxing I do mage mage mage bard. That runs much smoother for me. The only thing where I can get in trouble is when I try to fight nameds with heavy AEs. But that specific is a situation where nowadays a shaman really isn't very helpful. So even than, burning the mob faster and trying to keep out of range of the AE is of more benefit than trying to keep a group alife with the shaman.


Mage, mage, bard, nukemerc, healermerc, healermerc should bring you forward a long way.
Upto UF 2 dpsmerc 1 healer should be more than sufficient, maybe you can keep 2 dpsmerc even further.

Mage, wizzard, bard, nukemerc, nukemerc, healermerc I never tried but can possibly even be better.



Lets do some theoretic balancing.
Lets start with 3 possible scenari: something like T8 basepopp groupmob, fight last 30 seconds, 1 minute, 2 minute.

Mob has 500k HP, mob deals 3k dps. Tank starts with full HP 40k, but as buffer we want the tank to have 10k HP left at end of fight. So on averange we accept that the tank looses 30k hp during the fight.
1 healermerc should be good to heal 2k HP/second on averange.


Fight last 30 seconds:
You would need 16,7k groups dps. Hard do get that with groupgeared toons.
Mage, wizzard, bard, nukemerc, nukemerc, healermerc all burning shall do that.
Mob will deal 90k damage averange. with 30k HP-buffer on tank, you want to heal 60k.
You will need to have 2k HP/second averange healed on tank. 1 healermerc is sufficient for that.
(with 50% dps reduction it would be 45k damage - 30k buffer so 15k to heal = 0,5k HP/second).
(with 30% dps reduction it would be 63k damage - 30k buffer so 33k to heal = 1,1k HP/second).

Fight last 60 seconds:
You would need 8,3k groups dps.
2 Mages with bards auras and songs in T7 groupgear can do that.
Mage + shaman + bard .. all groupgeared T7 likely impossible.
Mob will deal 180k damage averange. with 30k HP-buffer on tank, you want to heal 150k.
You will need to have 2,5k HP/second averange healed on tank.
(with 50% dps reduction it would be 90k damage - 30k buffer so 60k to heal = 1k HP/second).
(with 30% dps reduction it would be 126k damage - 30k buffer so 96k to heal = 1,6k HP/second).

Fight last 120 seconds:
You would need 4.1k groups dps. If pettanking that would be where Mage + shaman + bard would be.
Mob will deal 360k damage averange. with 30k HP-buffer on tank, you want to heal 330k.
You will need to have 2,75k HP/second averange healed on tank.
(with 50% dps reduction it would be 180k damage - 30k buffer so 150k to heal = 1,25k HP/second).
(with 30% dps reduction it would be 252k damage - 30k buffer so 222k to heal = 1,85k HP/second).

Without factoring any special effects or lucky rounds on mobs side: If the fight last too long you will need upto 50% more healpower to keep your tank alife.


If you factoring in lucky rounds or special effects and also dps-reduction by stuns or slow and if you don't have dps enought your needs of healing power can grow to more than the double of those able to burn faster. With UF and the streaky nature of modern mobs dps the risk to die and wipe is growing improportional the longer the fight last.


Some mobs unleash their adds based on their %HP. In that case you can redirect 1 pet to the add and can keep going.

Some mobs unleash their adds every x seconds .. much more adds to deal with if you can't burn the mob.

Some mobs dish their AEs every x seconds, a load of more damage to endure, the longer the fight last.

The longer the fight last, the more likely your tank will fetch a series of "lucky rounds" from the mob.


Endurance-fighting with focus on pettanking (chainpulling with bard), so RS-pets whenever posssible to distract mob from mainpet, 1 mage should be good for around 3,5k dps groupgeared having bardsongs. 2 mages nonburning are good for around 7k dps. If you now add in 2 dpsmercs for 1,5k dps each and 1 healermerc you will run your group around 10k dps. You will need less than 1k / second healed on averange. 1 merc should be good for around 2k.



Conclusion for me out of doubt: "more dps is much better than more priest".
The chances to survive is much better. Getting XP and AA on double rate and, if camp choosen right, also double the named spawns (as you can keep down double the phs) for gear-upgrade, is a nice sideeffect I wouldn't sneeze at.



I growed up my mages befor the dps-mercs arrived. If the dps-mercs had come earlier I wouldn't have created the 4rth box. Best combo for todays groupgame starting from scratch talking about efficiency Mage/wizzard/bard, for surviving I would go mage/mage/bard, as when unexpected happens you have a second tank at hand.

Edit: ironed out some typos
Last edited by Kumudil on Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:38 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Kumudil
 
.
 
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:58 am
Server: Antonius Bayle


Shaman Main
Druid - Alt/Box
Magician - Alt/Box

Re: 3 Box team going through reform

Postby Chromatic » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:43 pm

Crazy great information Kumudil, I really appreciate it.

My goal is to have UF named on Farmed especially Convorteum named. Since I am on Firiona Vie server, I can either raid for or buy old tower raid gear.

Now when you mentioned in your last paragraph you would do bard/mage/wizard for efficiency, I assume you mean for grinding exp efficiency?
Chromatic
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:12 am


Bard Main
Magician - Alt/Box
Necromancer - Alt/Box

Re: 3 Box team going through reform

Postby Valdemar » Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:19 am

Yeah, this is a very useful discussion for me also because our normal team is Shaman (me) and Bard (wife). I also box the Bard when my wife is unavailable. We returned after almost 4 years away about 2 months ago and we've been leveling up a Mage (wife). Now, I understand that we're far from endgame content so the paradigm for us is different - we need to level before such considerations become important - but I find myself wishing for her Bard more and more. Sure, things die quickly with a Shaman/Mage combo, but we are able to do SOOO much more with Shaman/Bard.

I have to admit that I find the discussion a bit depressing to realize that we Shaman are weak sisters now - inferior in healing and damage mitigation abilities - when we used to be such powerhouses. In the end, we'll be limited because there is no way in hell I'm giving up my Shaman - which is my one and only character - to play a Mage. So our little team will always be gimped by a Shaman. We have a third account which we have not reactivated yet with our Druid on it, but we're thinking of transferring the Mage to that account so we can have a Shaman/Bard/Mage team and add a cleric, a wizard, and a rogue merc later.

Unlike most box threads, this was very useful. Thanks,
Valdemar.
Valdemar
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:45 am
Server: Saryrn

Re: 3 Box team going through reform

Postby Kumudil » Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:00 pm

Chromatic wrote:Now when you mentioned in your last paragraph you would do bard/mage/wizard for efficiency, I assume you mean for grinding exp efficiency?


Yes I meant killing mobs per our, which equals to xp gained and, if you are good at choosing camps, named spawned/gear earned.
Kumudil
 
.
 
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:58 am
Server: Antonius Bayle


Shaman Main
Druid - Alt/Box
Magician - Alt/Box

Re: 3 Box team going through reform

Postby Kumudil » Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:14 pm

Valdemar wrote:I have to admit that I find the discussion a bit depressing to realize that we Shaman are weak sisters now


I have the feeling that shaman loosed alot of relative power since OOW. If you have the luck to be a raider, or atleast have a usually full group of real players, shamans are not too bad, just not as powerful as they used to be.

For an incomplete group or a box crew nowadays there are just serveral other classses which can contribut more to a success than a shaman can do.

I don't have the feeling that shaman are "weak", below averange is where we are now. In OOW-era we have been really powerful but the stagnation we recieved since has been a little overdone.
Kumudil
 
.
 
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:58 am
Server: Antonius Bayle


Shaman Main
Druid - Alt/Box
Magician - Alt/Box

Re: 3 Box team going through reform

Postby Chromatic » Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:35 pm

Ahh. So in your opinion, you think a wizard would be better than a mage because it reduces the time each mob is alive which would lower the amount of healing needed.
Chromatic
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:12 am


Bard Main
Magician - Alt/Box
Necromancer - Alt/Box

Re: 3 Box team going through reform

Postby Kumudil » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:44 am

If you manage to never get killed with only 1 magepet tanking that should be the case. That's the big question. If the fight last shorter the likehood to see some high-damage rounds from the mob back to back gets less, but can still happen. On the other hand I don't know what a groupgeared wizzard really can burst-dps if needs be. Another factor is that it can always happen, that a merchealer just "goes afk" without mentioning, aka stops healing for a while.

A wizzard should allow to kill things faster, but then the only backup-tank you have is the bard. A Bard is decent at taking damage but has it hard to keep aggro. Without a pet on his side which keeps the mob in place, his chance to keep the mob disctracted from the silks is slim.

For my personal feelings the mage is better, as the risk to wipe is lower with a second mage. If you are looking for a setup for best performance, for you the higher dps of a wizzard may be better.
Kumudil
 
.
 
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:58 am
Server: Antonius Bayle


Shaman Main
Druid - Alt/Box
Magician - Alt/Box

Re: 3 Box team going through reform

Postby shamy60 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:48 am

what a shaman can add =
counterbias slow (proc an instant overtime heal to MT : 3466 hp per tic / 6932 crit ).
halcyon overtime heal buff 1733 hp per tic / 3466 crit .
that's 5200 hp per tic heal, before the mercs start to heal ........
growth buff (5600 hp ) = more than galantry.
lassitude = proc an agro (25% slow / mitigated,and a 1322 overtime heal ) / don't stack with counterbias hot tho. )
aa root = last 3 min once maxed.
lynx buff.
unity always on pets , players,never have to beg for those buffs.......
good DOTS.
with your bard,mage combo i would go with a shm as 3rd :wink:
i play shm/mage and it just rock,can kill many UF nameds,even some in converteum,if 2 mercs not enough to heal,i can chain heal as well to help them 8)
shamy60
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:36 am
Server: RATHE

Re: 3 Box team going through reform

Postby Desolit » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:10 pm

I'm running, Bard as my main, and a Shaman at the moment. Most of my friends are DPS, but scheduling sometimes messes it up.. I don't know what to add as a third. I'm thinking either Melee DPS or a Tank? Maybe both in a Monk?
Desolit
The Dark Minstrel
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:41 pm


Bard Main
Shaman - Alt/Box

Re: 3 Box team going through reform

Postby Brohg » Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:12 pm

Warrior fo sho
Brohg
 
Veteran ----
 
Posts: 4975
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:29 pm
Server: The Nameless (Innoruuk)


Shaman Main
Warrior - Alt/Box
Wizard - Alt/Box

Re: 3 Box team going through reform

Postby Ughbash » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:28 am

Desolit wrote:I'm running, Bard as my main, and a Shaman at the moment. Most of my friends are DPS, but scheduling sometimes messes it up.. I don't know what to add as a third. I'm thinking either Melee DPS or a Tank? Maybe both in a Monk?

If you want dps and a tank go ranger over monk, more dps, more utility and more tanking.

A good Monk can pull better but rangers have some nice pulling tools too now.
Tunares' Froggie Shaman,
Hipitey Hop [Watchkeepers]
Ughbash
Ferocious Vie
 
Veteran --
 
Posts: 2147
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:04 pm
Server: tunare


Monk Main
Shaman - Alt/Box
Warrior - Alt/Box


Return to Soloing / Duoing / Multiboxing

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron