Slay Undead Poll: Dev requested feedback

[Nodyin]

I'll stop back here when I can provide more concrete information to you all about possible changes; I'll need to consult with Rytan and the rest of the team in order to do that. In the meantime thank you all for your feedback.

[Saintsaens]

Thank you, Nodyin.

That's all most of us want I think, Nodyin, is some sort of better communication with the devs than we've had in the past. Please continue doing this.

[Abazzagorath]

[boukk]

[knytul]

[Brohg]

And that ends tonight's show, folks. Don't forget to tip the bartender!

[Cactuszach]

Thanks for comming here to help us Nodyin. Im looking forward to working with you.

[Vaindolf]

Wonder if this whole thing fizzled out somewhere or if there is some work/testing going on. Today's HUGE dps differences among classes is really starting to be a balance issue. I see some wizzy + some raondom box twink, both equiped with a healer merc, tank and kill hard hitting group mobs now without any problem. 7-8k hitters np for them to tank, mostly because they got the mercs, but the Super high burst dps they can deliver hits the nameds so hard, the nameds gets killed wondering wth just happened.

[Coupdvil]

I'll have faith that he is still working on it.

Thanks again Nodyin for looking into this issue.

[LadyAngelfire]

Two quick questions for Nodyin:

1. When you state 'due to a math error' can you please clarify this? How far % is it off, whats intended?
2. Does the dev team feel Paladin total DPS vs undead is too high right now? (Not just the 75% increase)

I think that this change could be a great thing for Paladins as long as the following requirements are met:

1. Preserve maximum slay hit (keep the eye candy)
2. Maintain (or improve) TOTAL PAL DPS vs undead

I like that we can rock the other tanks in DPS vs Undead and that is appropriate for our class. This should not change.
More flexibility in DPS would be a good thing as right now if we want to solo for AA's we pretty much have to do undead.

[Cellan]

So let me get this right before I post my thoughts.

Our DPS has fallen way behind the mark.
Our slay undead "in effectiveness" is behind the mark. Equivalent warriors could kick out the same DPS and have every other DPSing class has their burst dmg "on-call" while slay is still streaky, rare, and random.

So we need to give in order to be brought closer to mark?

Give a beggar a dollar and ask for 4 quarters in return?

[Danaeka]

I agree that our dps is lacking. I am not sure however, why we would have to give up slay in order for developers to bring us more in line with the other knights? I don't see where they had to give up their ability to FD or other changes to their abilities in order to get to their current levels? There are certain class defining abilities that should be left alone. I guess I'm just missing your rational for taking something away in order to fix a problem. I'm a bit late to the discussion as I've not had the chance to read the boards lately so just throwing in my 2 cents.

[Cellan]

exactly

[Occam]

It's not a matter of giving one thing to get another.

Due to the way Slay Undead is set up, it would be boosted far higher than they intended if they were to give us a general melee boost. They never said they were going to "take away" slay, or even that the end result would be worse than it is now. Those are all assumptions people have made, and without evidence.

The whole point of reducing Slay is because the boost will boost it too high. From this we can deduce that the boost WILL affect slay. So, a reduced slay + a boost = ??? How can we know the answer to that? If the boost is the same as the reduction, then we come out even. Maybe the boost will be smaller than the boost and we come out with a net loss, or maybe it's higher and we get a net gain (okay, probably not). But without numbers, we just can't know.

[Hulkling]

[Achillez]

Why SoE wants slay undead to be nerfed is beyond me. Slay undead is already completely LAUGHABLE to SKs version of the AA. Please fix our class so I do not feel like a gimp cleric during raids (which is pretty much the role we have taken now with our dps, and current agro controlling abilities) It has been months since I have even played my character outside raids because I find it so tedious and boring to spend 2-3 minutes killing 1 lightblue mob and I am crystallos+ geared.

[knytul]

[Vaindolf]

[Ughbash]

[Hulkling]

by "watching TV" I merely meant not paying attention to the game. I.E. just mashing Backstab and not using any discs, activated AAs, or any other special abilities that normally produce 10k DPS burn fights.

[Ughbash]

[Dawgrit]

Well I am definately willing to talk about something which divorces our slay damage from our normal damage, maybe it still has a componant based on our weapon, maybe not...but I just want to see some option or some of the ideas that the devs have for this. Hulk, have you heard anything about the status of this issue? I am getting very antsy...=)

[Hulkling]

I asked a week or 2 ago, Nodyin said they'd have to take a closer look at it to give us some numbers. But no ETA.

[Caeelar]

Personally, I still see no reason to nerf slay. It's just not that powerful.

I'd like to see our live mob dps raised the same way SK's get dps... through spells. We would have to sacrifice a few spell gems to get it, but at least it would be available. I think the crushs are a good start, but they carry the aggro of our stuns which makes them impossible to really use on a raid mob. Why not give us Knight freindly versions of cleric dps spells? Clerics get a decent dps spell line that would help our dps quite a bit. Reduce the cast time to sub-second, and make the recast + cast time equal the cast time on the cleric version. I really don't see a reason not to give us there AE line as well. Would be very handy in gathering stuff up and keeping it off our merc/healer when there is no enchie around. Would also be alot of fun. A couple of 1.5 to 2k base damage nukes would help us *alot* if they aren't locked into our stuns recast.

My suggestion:

- 1.5k base damage nuke. Sub-second cast time. 3 second recast
- 2k base damage nuke. Sub-second cast time. 3.5 second recast
- No additional aggro added to spell. They will do aggro same as cleric spells.

-Fun addition would be to add the cleric AE line to our spell lineup. 2k PB AE. Sub-second cast time. 6 second recast.

Not sure how this would parse out, but it would also give us some ability to be amped by an enchanter or bard. It would not really raise our undead dps, since we will most likely be using our undead nukes in an undead burn fight for the side-affects they give which lower mob melee resistance. In a solo or tanking situation, we could use them in conjunction with crushes as long as our mana held out and if we could afford the spell gems.

[tiggjj]

Paladins are suppose to be the masters of undead. Why would anybody want to reduce any part of that ability?

In fact, I think that this ability has been nerfed so much that its not fun to play paladins anymore.

Why do we still have this class if the main focus of it is being nerfed.

Matter of fact, I would rather see either more undead mobs, or the number of SU procs increased.

And what is this BS going on in frostcrypt that these mobs hit like lvl 90 mobs!

[Axeion]

[Vaindolf]

[vawen]

Constant 2.6k dps is pretty good for a tank, I dont think there are too many class that can do 2.6k dps without wasting mana and/or endurance on 100 mobs.

[frocus]

We shouldn't be comparing ourselves to Rogues, wizards, or Berserkers for sustained or burst dps tho. We are a tank class not DPS class. Compare our numbers on undead to shadowknights and warriors sustained dps. Then compare our non undead DPS to SK and Warriors. The reason Nodyin talked about the 75% average boost from Slay undead is because if group sustained melee dps on live mobs went from say 1k sustained to 2k sustained then undead dps would jump from 1750 dps to 3500dps the gain from slays jumps from 750dps to 1500 dps. Unlike other classes abilities which grant percentage type effects to DPS our percentage boost a Much more significant boost.

[boukk]

[boukk]

[frocus]

Despite what you think boukk we do have parity with regards to our survivability vs wizards dps. Wizzies aren't doing 26 k dps sustained or burst so we shouldn't have 10x the mitigation of a wizard tho we still have signifiacnt mitigation advantages over wizards due to higher ac on our gear and higher post cap returns on our ac. You also have to look at what was used when Brael parsed his 5.7k fight. Harm touch which accounts for about 1/4 of the dps output on that fight is a DPS ability for the Offensive knight were we get LoH a defensive ability that is equivalent to HT. I believe he also had to use his plant bane dots and completely drop any utility but dps to stack dots using the DPS spire. Burst capabilities are something we as paladins lack but it comes from us being a more defensively oriented Tank thanks to our non warrior parent class. Sustained dps Paladins are only about 20% behind SK's and most of that comes from spell book. The minor difference in swing dps comes as a result of SK aa's recieved which effect their self buff procs which they recieved when we got Slay undead. Trying to compare our dps to another classes burst dps and ask for parity when we lack the burst tools means you want our sustained dps to match other classes burst DPS which will not ever happen. The changes to mitigation were needed we got a boost and others got a boost. Wizards and rogues didn't suddenly start tanking top end group stuff in group gear because of the change so it wasn't really a bad thing. I'm not saying we don't need a DPS gain I only said we need to stop trying to compare our dps to wizards and such. The reason I said in My post to look at sustained and burst DPS numbers was so that the person I responded too could see that the Difference between our Burst and Sustained dps was nil unless we happened to get in a group with a Shammy for lynx/champ and the like.

[boukk]

[Jazya]

2.6k sustained is "pretty lame" huh?
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts ... 86#2147392

[boukk]

[frocus]

That isn't an afk parse Boukk. That 2.5k dps parse includes backstabs. You are also serverely over estimating sustained dps from dps classes while understating our survivability in asking that with wizzies dpsing as they can so shouldn't be able to tank an orc pawn. Undervaluing our class while Lying about other classes abilities isn't going to help us but I'm done with this BS discussion.

[boukk]

[frocus]

Boukk the parse rogue showed using only haste pots and self clickies was only 2k dps his post with 2.5k included champ haste etc. A rogue can only burn 2 discs every fight so only there opening attack disc and bleed disc should be counted for sustained dps the other discs they utilize are long duration burst discs. I am replying since you went ahead and called me out. Btw you say I am making up numbers but you yourself made up the numbers for wizzy. I routinely group with a MMM raid geared rogue I know what their burst and sustained capabilities are. You really need to stop arbitrarily claiming shit that is false. It does us no good as a class because the devs can look at hte numbers themselves and see that you are full of it.

Most SK parses over 5k dps are under 2 minutes of which harmtouch is running for 42 seconds btw.

[karkariace]

[frocus]

Where did I say I was Top End? I never did. I stated I grouped with the rogue because Boukk wants their sustained dps parses to include every disc every fight.(At least that is what it looked like he asked for.)

I also stated that most of the really good SK parses are 2 minutes and under. So I play at a different level of the game because working nights at one job and evenings in another mean that most raid times are beyond my ability to attend recently. Are you saying that if I am not in the top 1% my opinion doesn't matter?

I happen to play Every class in the game outside of berserker and Cleric(have cleric box I used as buff ho but never really played it as anything but a box). What lack of knowledge did I demonstrate other than calling ht about 25% rather than Approximately 15% at the very top end?


Regardless you can take your 1-900-MixALot holier than thou attitude and stuff it. I am not the reason Pallies are in the state they are now people like you and boukk who want everything are because in asking for everything it is easier to be told no. Peace.