Slay Undead Poll: Dev requested feedback

[Wyvernwill]

[Elidroth]

The issue is the two are interconnected. You cannot increase live melee dps without causing undead dps to also increase, as the Slay is a multiplier on your normal melee dps. They are not independently adjustable. This is at least in part what I want to accomplish with the changes whenever they do go into effect.

Currently, Slay 9 gives you a 51.5% chance to hit for 230% more damage. On the surface, this would seem like you're only getting a 2.3x damage multiplier 51.5% of the time, but because of where this takes place in all the damage calculations, it actually scales at a MUCH higher rate on the final damage number.

So.. 1st off.. I'm trying to get coding time to get the two types of damage to be independently adjustable. Once that's done, we can more easily and rapidly adjust damage to bring you up to where we (systems) think you need to be in ALL situations. And as said before.. you will be WELL informed as to how and when this is happening, so you don't get blindsided.

[Genadinee]

So sometime after hell freezes over we could possibly, maybe, small chance see coding get a small, insignificant, improbable break in fixing far more important stuff to take a look at this. Then when Devs get the same sort of opening on their agenda inbetween working on other projects, having a holiday, fixing bugs. it will be looked at.

Sorry to sound so negative but the initial post was in January, which was way way before Underfoot, Giants giants giants and other stuff deemed more important.

Thanks for taking the time to come post but all I see is a smoke screen and now have zero faith in anything being done about this ever.

[knytul]

wow, you know when Gena has a bad attitude...you know somethings seriously wrong

in all honesty tho Elid, Thank you for at least posting that much to us. Thats 1000x more than most devs have released our way. I still got faith in u, just not in most coders.

[shiftie]

[Thebobo]

[vawen]

I am sorry but I can't see why with the dps warriors and sks can put out in current game we are watching a way to nerf slay undead. Becouse lets be serious what we are talking about is a nerf to slay undead, our only current way to make some good xp soling.

All other class when get upgrades don't need to give up any of his abilities and I am pretty against to give out my only way to solo on an efective matter for an unknown dps upgrade that it is not measured nor talked about.

After the WoT fiasco and checking our past experience with "having faith" on the developers (self DI, ae agro, etc) I have 0 confidance on what we will get is something good. Or the devs wake up, surpass the hybrid tank vs warrior mentality and put a serious offer in the table (detailed, and knowing that touching SU remove our only way to solo decently) or I will be completly opposed to touch SU in anyway.

It has been said here countless times, but in current game we have warriors doing 6k+ dps on burn calls to any kind of target on combats around 2 mins, and with a sustained dps on group well over what we are doing now. Asking us to take a volunteer nerf to our main source of dps at this moment sound like a bad joke, in all case the order should be reversed, start giving us somewhat a decent dps upgrade and then lets see how we can touch SU to become in line with devs view. Until that IMHO touching SU is the worst thing that can happend to the paladin class.

[Cellan]

Sounds like our feedback doesn't matter, it's getting nerfed either way.

[Elidroth]

At what point did I EVER say Nerf? I said I was working on a way to split the two types of damage so they could be adjusted independently. Sometimes you guys read what you WANT to read instead of what's actually there.

As for target DPS, it's not just MY decision but that of the entire systems team, but we're looking at putting you somewhere just behind Warriors for melee DPS because you have heals and spells which can make up the difference in utility. In turn, for Undead NPCs, we want you significantly ahead of ALL other melee classes.

Separation of the two damage types is the start.

[Joejo]

[vawen]

[Abazzagorath]

[Wyvernwill]

[Orthanos]

I say just do what i did. Shit can your pally and make a dps class. I made a necro. I miss my pally and wish SoE werent such stinkers when it came to these issues that have been mentioned for YEARS. overall I enjoy the game but with the death of grouping due to mercs etc. I miss the days of Planes of Power. Grouping was at the highlight then and pallies werent so craptastic. if i had it to do all over again i would have made a different choice and made a SK or a Warrior....never a Pally.

[Abazzagorath]

[Abazzagorath]

Let me give this example of what I was talking about. Me and my girlfriend box a lot of old raid events for fun. She likes to parse hanvar if we go to anguish, just because as a shaman she can go crazy (never a resist against poison, lot of hp so doesn't die fast).

Now, everytime she parses that fight, I (paladin) am afk in a corner with 1h/sheild offtanking. Because, for fun, I'm trying to outparse her with MY shaman, my boxed zerker (1800 aa, max accuracy, fero 7, cleave 7, epic 2.5 + 7 and 6 dmg aug for 107+1/33 2her) is afk on the back of hanvar the whole time. Other than to back him up a step after the knockback, he is afk dps, but I do hit his epic and click savage to start.

My paladin has outparsed the zerker every single time we have done that. That's right, using a 1her, afk, from the front, he outparses the berserker. Primarily from damage shield and riposte damage, but it still happens (talking both are in the 1600-1800 dps range). Now, take that same zerker, parse him in a group, and he nearly doubles up on my paladins dps. Why? From nothing more than hitting volley, frenzy, op frenzy, epic, and cry havoc. Does he lose end? Only have end regen aa +1 so far, so yes, after maybe an hour of constant fighting he is out of endurance, I sit him for 3 mins and that's it.

So when Elidroth gives those relative positions, I feel that if he's talking afk auto attack dps, we're already there. But the reality is that other than poorly boxed alts, real players use their abilities and are able to sustain short reuse spells and discs to achieve much higher dps.

[Normy]

[Abazzagorath]

[boukk]

[WaringMcMarrin]

Those DPS claims just don't sound right. You have any parses with those numbers?

[Edivor]

[knytul]

Yall need to Chill Out. Some of yall are flippin out and gettin extremist on Elidroth when hes actually coming IN HERE and trying to work WITH us. Dont blow it for us now when we actually have a developer working with us.

"Cellan: Sounds like our feedback doesn't matter, it's getting nerfed either way."

This aint cool man. Elid has been asking for a TON of feedback and we have been sending up a bunch. I know i have, Hulkling has, Abazz has, ALOT of paladins have. Ive asked lots of pallies if they have any feedback so i can send it up with my own in 1 mass email, instead of spamming elid w/ 100 emails. Seriously, Chill out. Beta is Right around the corner and thats where all the work is gonna take place.

Let me see if i can clarify a little bit on what Elid is trying to do.

Code for Slay undead looks sorta like this:

Base melee with Slay Modifiers = Damage output on Undead mob.

Instead he wants: Base Melee = Number 1, Slay Undead = Number 2. Number 1 + Number 2 = Slayed DPS.

In doing this, Slayed dps can be set constant by rank and be unmodified except by weapon damage. Base melee however would be independent and could be modified by aa's, etc. The slay modifiers are currently combined in the code of Base melee and he wants to separate them.

in NO WAY is this line of thinking a Nerf, but instead a cleanup of bad code writing. If i were to take the current SU code to my programming teacher hed prolly end up whompin my ass. After the 2 are separated and working toward a combined result equal to our current dps, THEN some changes can occur.

1) Base melee can be boosted just behind warriors
2) Slay modifiers shouldnt be adjusted unless its in a positive direction to have us surpassing ALL melee classes on Undead.
3) More AA lines (ie flurry) should be opened up to us AND sk's
4) Further discussion in Offensive spell casting should be able to happen without anymore headaches.

SO, if this goes as planned, on live mobs in current situations, we should be able to do as much as say... a 7k dps burn (cuz i know ive seen war's surpass , and on Undead mobs....5 digits baby

[Turayalon]

Thanks for the response Elidroth I cant believe im saying this but im actually quite excited to see where this leads. It has been a long time since I have seen something to get excited about being a paladin. I just hope this accounts for burn fights also because that's where we are most lacking on dps from other classes = )

[Ghirador]

[Remdayen]

Elidroth thanks for taking the time to communicate with us and let us know where you are coming from. It will be nice to see how this all turns out, looks like for the better in the long run for us as a class.

[ZsaZsa Vavoom]

While some of the math being thrown around sounds suspect, I think I understand and appreciate the intent of separating our live and undead dps. I guess the only caveat to that is if it leads to a situation like, "This would be the best/perfect way to do this. Unfortunately, that is really complicated, so we can't do anything to improve your lot for a year.", then I'm sure there will be plenty of pushback that says, "Then perhaps it isn't practical to do the best, pure solution. Because something really needs to happen sooner than a year." Make sense?

I'm a software engineer. I hate when I can't fix something the right way. But sometimes when you look at the time constraints involved, I just have to take a deep breath and make the problem go away for the short term until the day I get lucky enough to have the time to fix it right.

[Ughbash]

[Letarus]

Why should we not be top melee dps in our specialty?

[Wyvernwill]

[Ughbash]

I disagree, but then I am not a developer.

Paladin were a time the top solo class for XP (possibly behind beaming wizards).
Paladins are perhaps CURRENTLY the top solo class for Trophy kills.
Paldins were at times topping raids dps (frostcrypt).

I hope they do not return to god mode.


Monks on the other hand were the top class for cheaters using MacroQuest....

[karkariace]

Knock it off with the personal attacks. If you want to talk about EQ, do so. If not, don't post. - Zsa

[Opfor]

Ughbash has been on the Samanna boards for a very long time ans is pretty well respected as far as I can tell.

Also are you guys reading what Eli, is saying? or are you just pumping out knee jerk hate because a dev posted here and mentioned Slay?

PS SKs are current top trophy kill class. /flex

[Wyvernwill]

[Elidroth]

I understand this is a very heated subject for you guys.. I get it.. really!

But one thing I noticed in an earlier post.. and keep in mind.. these numbers are purely out of thin air and don't represent any direction I'm taking.

If I make a change that takes slay from an average 1 hit per minute at 30k, to an average of 3 hits per minute at 10k per hit, and you cry nerf.. I'm going to point at you and laugh. That goes for any class, not just you. Incorrect perception is no way to work on or balance a game. Let's keep conversations in reality please.

[shiftie]

[Elidroth]

Yep.. I agree. Sitting there with auto-attack turned on watching numbers go by is boring as hell.

[Arvantos]

[shiftie]

[Wyvernwill]

[Abazzagorath]