lets get paladins ae aggro

[dindaur]

it would be useful. and because i can envision situations i encounter daily in game where i could use this spell, the fact that it would be an aid to our role as tank, there have been countless times ive come across more mobs than i could aggro on the fly, and an ae aggro would come in handy. without an ae aggro people can die, there's not much you can do about it. if i had ae aggro, i would be pretty happy. i would be at ease because i would have a tool thats designed to gain aggro on multiple mobs. i face this from time to time, raid events, mishaps in pulling, adds and whatnot, oh shit moments, yet right now when i try to get into those situations i have at my disposal single targets stuns to go down the line 1 by 1 or a group heal which will drian my mana by about 10 percent, or a one time use instant group heal which may or may not get aggro on them all. its a small ae aggro so it wont overpower others. our ae aggro methods are unsavory . we're using tools which were designed for another intent but have some use as ae tools. bursting yourself, group healing, firing hand of piety, these are all pretty decent aggro. however these tools dont have the aggro to be able to allow you to relegate them as your entire and only spells cast when trying to gain aggro on multiple mobs. as it is there is no thing better for a paladin to do that to just cycle mobs down the line and stun each once or twice and hope that is enough. each stun takes a few seconds to cast if you need two have to wait for the grey out time if thats not enough you have to wait for the refresh and all the while the other mobs are roaming around and killing people. the best thing i can do is taunt, fire a challenge to give me some positive aggro over the new even ground, and then move to the next, stun maybe to stop the mob in its tracks and then taunt again. taunt is our fastest means to aggro, it cycles very fast, has a fairly high success rate, but not reliable. i am the person you want on these mobs, not the dps nor the healers, of course youd expect that, because i am the tank. however we have no primary tools for this role. even though we are called to perform it anyhow. a group heal is a spell i hate to cast for aggro, i would much rather attempt to at least try and catch the mobs up, which are often times roaming around, so they neeed to be caught up for a taunt, stuns often arent enough because you cant just build and beat the aggro levels of soeone thats had this mob for awhile, even if its from casting aggro, theyve got more than a few casts worth of aggro. thats where the stun is great. thats why i say although we dont have ae aggro we do have taunt. without taunt i would be ineffecient as hell at catching spare mobs.

people are dying because i dont have aggro on the mob. i dont have aggro on the mob because i do not have the ability to hold aggro on every mob within a perimiter around me. i do not have the ability to hold aggro on multiple mobs around me because.. who knows. but we are in a position to get this ability.

tunare is gone. i loved it, it was a fun fun spell, it added a whole new dimension to the game, procs off the rate of hits you recieve. pretty sick. sony didnt anticipate this, they had no idea what they created. freaked out, got rid of it. spells like languor / lassitude still have that original unlimited procs off mob coding, and heh, sony, if you are reading this. all those things i could do with tunare, i can do with lassitute. the fact is that procs that scale infinately off of the rate of hits taken, may ALL be unbalancing. maybe that was just a bad idea. but tunare is 1-900-MixALot to such a degree as to make it not even worth casting. i am about at the point where its getting the demem. what good is a fix, if it makes the spell not worth the space on your spell bar. for a spell that attracted so much attention, that paladins enjoyed clearly quite a bit, couldnt there have been some usefulness. now this bullshit coding where the spell will not even proc on you at all if the mob is under 15 levels. what, are we going to make temerity a buff that only holds on you in level 65+ zones? does your raid gear now become unusable in lower guk? it's like if youre going to do something, do it right. get it sorted the right way, 100 percent. if you are going to take the stance that spells cant be used on content due to levels, why not open up that WHOLE can of worms eh? face it, you got into some territory which is pretty 1-900-MixALot messy, and your best bet is to just get rid of the level limit shit altogether. the proc rate is already reduced to what, 4 times a minute? how overpowering is that going to be on guk mobs without any tunare on, i was killing in fungus grove. i literally did not drop below 100 percent. the mobs were hitting me, but with blessing of life and with regen, i just stayed at 100 eprcent. how is tunare going to unbalance that scenario? the gear is already so sick that nothings gonna touch you. so you may come across some old world boss god mob that you could perhaps actually get some useuflness form the tunare procs, perhaps one of those super long fights that really test you, endurance fights, where every little advantage is huge over the long run. a tunare would be useful... only you cant cast it because of the level limit shit. a spell you have to WORK for to get, you cant get any usefulness from in the place where it would make the most impact. where it would be the most useful.

but with tunare gone, we have no more spells thatre gonna be exploitable with massive amounts of mobs. giving ae aggro to a class with a heal proc based on inc damage rate, the swings of those attacking the tank, with no real limit on proc rate, and a grand total proc count of about 200ish, which could be casted over and over, basically giving the tank near invulnerability, that would be a dumb ass move. granted. i agree, good job sony. you really dodged the bullet there ;p. your realized your dumb ass tunare heh was so fubared that an ae aggro would 1-900-MixALot shit up bad. but that shits gone now. we have no insane ability. what a dumbass that made that spell by the way. the reason tunare was exploitable is because it followed one simple rule. we will give you a proc chance on every hit you take. we will not put a limit on how often this can proc. these two rules in conjuction were absolutely nutty and dumb. it still took skill to stand there in that corner, well not skill, but it certainly was something, 25 mobs beating your ass, you're trying to channel the tunare but just cant manage it. the kind of oh shit moment that just doesnt exist much today. every damn zone has a safe spot. what the hell is up with safe spots. sure, let the zone in be safe. but every camp in the zone has a wall to perch on, or something. zones that challenged you to take the zone on, on its own terms, were the ones thate ven today are pretty challenging. luclin did this pretty well, mobs are EVERYwhere. you want a safe spot? carve it out ;p zones like ag and fc, these'd be way more fun if there was more of a threat factor. problem was you could always sit there without chance of getting hit, so then people'd start trying to get themseves so buffed up as to being basically impervious to any chance of death, basically gimping the content. sony gives groups the chance to gimp content, in nearly all of its new expansions. get rid of safe spots. let the action be continuous and let there be , if there are safe spots, let them be well away from the good stuff. a sweet aug, a zones signture drop, that should be right in the middle of some heavy shit, that you have to clear in to, with special stuff, mobs that spawn adds that shadowstep, traps, hidden floors, all sorts of junk, make it difficult and fun and disable maps >). instead we've gotten into this whole lets make it as comfortable as possible so that i can watch tv andwhile i do this. or babysit my daughter. or whatever.

but anyhow, ae aggro. we're sitting, and some mobs come. my job, well im supposed to be the one tanking them. but there's a shitload of these mobs, how the hell am i going to get agro on them all? i could hit my ae aggro ! i cant tell you how convenient and how happy an ae aggro would make paladins feel. if we have ae aggro, we can actually perform on content. what they should do is give varying levels of affectiveness on ae aggro. each tank can taunt, and i already wrote about how important that is. give us the ae aggro. its a tool, its a basic tank tool, and we do need it yes. need meaning, if we had it, we would definately use it, ALOT. and we as tanks, we should have some shit to help us tank no? AE aggro was a great idea when it was convceived and implimented an it should have been something that all the tank classes saw as an evolution, a step forward, and encounters are designed around ae aggro, and it is a generally fun ability. it should have gone to paladins as well. we're tanks. why else? because we like the idea of it? no. because of pure function. because we spend months geting high ass ac and grinding out those defensive aa's, and we want to actually use them. we want to put ourselves to use, and this tool is how we can do that.

point is when a paladins sees multiple mobs he's scurrying around after em trying to taunt stun whatever group heal maybe to get em off the people he's meant to defend, course, if they roam far, if the raids spread out, then your group heal wont do shit, and course, if you fail a taunt, you could have lost a raid member to their melee while you fumbled with the mob. we need something reliable. it shouldnt be that we have really shitty and inadaquate tools to beat the content, and that is the challenge thats envisioned and intened. if we're already tanking multiple mobs, do us the favor of giving us a tool that is actually designed for that purpose. with or without ae aggro as a spell, i will be tanking multiple mobs many many more times, in the coming weeks and months. an ae aggro just gives the realistic nod that hey, we realize paladins DO tank many mobs already, here is somethign you can cast that reflects that. we need the spells to reflect what we do, and the fact is the absense of an ae aggro doesnt fit.

[Zyba]

*hands the grammer police some Vicodin, because regular strength tylenol just wont cut it here*

[Zyba]

But on a more constructive note...

It's my understanding that this issue has come up time and again (and I've brought it up at least once) only to be shot down repeatedly as the dev's 'final' word on the matter is our heals are supposed to be our version of AE agro. If that's the case I think they should implement a spell focus line that does the reverse of caster epics. Most caster epics have the innate focus of being something like making mobs 20-30% less likely to hate you for your magical activities. Well give paladins a spell focus that causes 100% (yes 100% or higher becuase a single heal doesn't do **** for hate when compared to a single taunt or agro spell) EXTRA hate from all healing spells.

[dindaur]

[Saeel]

[Bruennor]

[Hulkling]

[dindaur]

ae aggro needs to be looked at as the newest iteration of developments of aggro. group heals are not sustainable in their usage. group heals are also not large enough of aggro to actually hold aggro. burst was pretty nice if you were pulling a train of mobs to pl with three bursts was the amount it took to build unbreakable aggro upon yourself while a level 35 ae aggro'd two times. paladins are already achieving ae aggro. its just taking a component of spells we already have, and making it into its own seperate memmable spell. we cant perform this duty with the tools that we have to any great measure of reliability.

[Zorbee]

I agree about the need for AE aggro at least at some sort of way. If you haven't aggro'd the mob at all and you heal yourself, it won't come to you. If you chain heal yourself you won't have all the mobs in the group turn to you. It just isn't effective.

However, dina, bro. Capital letters... all good things.

[Bruennor]

You apparently dont burst heal in hard zones much dindar.

I did a group in bloodmoon keep a few days ago, first pick up group in a long time on my pally. I was the puller. I pulled a 4 pull one time, with no chanter, just lucky had a raid level cleric. All the mobs stayed on me full time, all thanks to burst heals. It is mana intensive, but it is hard to interrupt it thanks to the cast time, and it is a guaranteed aggro booster. Also, with 4 mobs beating on me, the cleric couldnt keep me anywhere near 100 percent hp most of the fight, so I had plenty of hp to burst heal. I never lost aggro other than once in a while the mob on me would turn on the ranger, which lasted all of 5 seconds till my spell gems refreshed and I stunned it.

So no, burst heals are far from only useful for pl'ing a lv 35 toon. They are love it and hate it ae aggro. They will get you unexpected ae aggro, unwanted ae aggro, and wanted ae aggro. It just isn't a raid worthy ae aggro strat, which is ok, ae aggro on raids is not our job. My burst heals kept 4 bloodmoon mobs on me with a cleric spamming heals non stop, and to me that says a lot.

Example of unwanted aggro is me and a warrior friend were doing a 69.2 mission, full of hasted shrooms. He was going to aggro and defensive when he pulled a bit too big of a train. I healed him when he almost died at the beginning, and I was the tank there on out. It was just made worse since the only way I lived as long as I did was due to spamming bursts on myself, loh, and clicky group heal, all overloading my aggro.

So yes, paladins have very reliable ae aggro, it doesnt even have to target a mob.

[dindaur]

im doing some tests on burst of sunlight
i can cast it 13 times before running out of mana, no buffs, bard song on. i was sitting in the lobby.
gonna do some fights in vald, raids, gonna see if i get a chance to test otu the ae aggro on some adds.

[Bruennor]

No, my warrior friend doesnt suck at aggro. He uses some offhand from anguish I think, not sure, and epic 2, has over 1500 aa, all the tanking and aggro ones maxed. Fully buffed, tribute, cleric aura, fire, he hits 4300 / 26k, so I think he knows what he is doing.

Burst heals are not iffy aggro. They cause too much hate to be iffy aggro. Due to having no subtlety aa's, our heals dont stand much of a chance, if any, of not getting you on the aggro list.

And yes, bursts lock out our spell gems, but, I am willing to bet one burst out aggroes a stun, so you can live without spells for 5 seconds. The point is, paladins have ae aggro now, all you have to do is tell your healer to let you heal yourself for the first few seconds of a fight, there you go, ae aggro. If its a lot of tough mobs, the healer just has to let you get in the first heal, bam, ae aggro. Paladins have ae aggro, it just may not be what a lot of paladins wanted.

As for raid ae aggro, well, make sure you dont have 5 other tanks trying to help you with your mobs. What I mean is don't expect to aggro a mob already being tanked one on one by another tank.

I am kinda curious about one thing though. Does the pally epic up hate from a heal we cast on ourselves? Or does it just act like a focus and we still get the same aggro? But regardless, that thing has saved my behind more times than i can count, so I love it.

I have never had issues with burst heals for ae aggro since I got 2 of them. They give a lot of hate, and when you got 5 mobs on you, it ups the hate on all 5, because you aren't directing the hate at one single mob. I know you may have to med after a pull that you have to chain bursts on for both survivability and ae aggro, but that is also what will keep you alive when you only got one healer who is losing the race of dps versus amount healed.

But yes, definitely play with bursts for ae aggro. Just remember the mobs have to be aggro on you for the hate to work, and make sure you arent only missing 10 percent hp when you use it. I think you will be pleased with the results.

[dindaur]

[dindaur]

[Jace]

[Hulkling]

[dindaur]

[Nightops]

[Bruennor]

[dindaur]

[Ughbash]

[Veril]

[dindaur]

[Ughbash]

[Unmei]

[dindaur]

[Hulkling]

[dindaur]

[Bruennor]

[Hulkling]

[dindaur]

@ hulk and bruen

seems like its worth testing. idea is go to some newbie zone, cast some cheals with a cleric, or some ahls, or whatever, just make it a measured amount, and then run a test of paladin stuns then group heals then burst heals seeing how many of each it takes

i may do this heh, soon.

[Hulkling]

problem with that is, some mobs are more succeptable to heal agro. Something to do with mob intelligence. (I learned this from Lluainae btw)

[Bruennor]

Burst of sunlight and the SoF burst are on seperate timers.

I dont see us getting a pure hate style ae aggro skill, even if we can do it with heals. Biggest reason is the fact that that would mean we could reliably ae aggro on raids, and I don't think paladins are meant to have that skill. My only complaint was ae aggro in groups, and that has been fixed rather nicely for me using both bursts on nasty pulls.

[Kianor]

Hmm, Dindaur. You want better AE agro for paladins. But most other paladins posting here don't feel they want it or need it.

AE agro isn't a paladin staple, and there's not really any reason why it should be. It's just one of those things that the paladin doesn't do well. You might as well say, for example, rangers need better heals... it's something they do but not very well and that's by design.

[Bruennor]

I will be the first to admit we needed ae aggro. Not to solidify a place on a raid, but to compete with warriors and sk's in the crowded zones of SoF. It was not fair to force one tank to take a certain class make up and not the other 2 basically, when that requirement forces a solo puller or mezzer and the other 2 don't. Yes I am talking about overgeared for the content, like me tanking 4 bloodmoon mobs with no chanter, and no singles puller. It would not be fair if warriors and sk's could reliably, and without a hitch, keep aggro on all of them.

That is what burst heals have taken care of for me. On those types of pulls, I do not lose aggro at all unless somebody isnt assisting, and goes nuts. I don't lose aggro to tash, I dont lose aggro to slows, and I don't lose aggro to heals. This is what I wanted ae aggro for, so I am happy with how burst heals are handling this job. Yes this gets nasty sometimes when I dont want to tank and my heals get me aggro, and in order to live I must heal myself, thereby creating more aggro, but honestly, I am not often in a situation where I am not the tank.

I just think all paladins should try this. it works like a charm. It may not work on raids all that well, but the spot we needed competitive ae aggro, it works great.

[sonof]

Personally I'd like some sort of AE aggro. Nothing to compare to SK's, or even warriors. For years our Aggro has been tied to stuns, which as caused various problems for us. If we leave our AE aggro tied to healing (in whatever form) we are liable to run into the same problem in the future.
If we have a chance we can get several (4-5) mobs locked with relative ease (using trial and stuns) but it is the 5-10 seconds at the start of the fight that causes the problem.

Maybe some sort of long timer (15 or even 30 minute re-use) AA or Disc that gives us a shot of aggro over everything so we can have a chance to lock things down at least.

Son of

[Ughbash]

[Zyba]

[Unmei]

[Zyba]