Tier V merc > me

[Abazzagorath]

[Cellan]

I happen to have a cleric alt and for everyone saying "I'd take a real cleric over a merc cleric any day" I find that to be a flat out lie, even from the people that say it. Given the cleric is 75/1100 with a 17k mana pool I don't get groups in appropriate level content either way, but never do cleric mercs have a hard time getting groups from crushbone to korafax.

Of course, when it's time to raid things are so drastically different.

[frocus]

I will always pick up a cleric that asks for a group but I'm sick of clerics who are level 75 call a kith or Fos group bottom feeding so turning it down my merc doesn't care where we go as longas it gets its Platz every 15 minutes the cleric thing is a 2 way street, if clerics weren't so out for content beyond what a tank of there level could handle many would find it easier to get groups.

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

[Ughbash]

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

I've been restraining myself from responding to these latest comments, for fear of being branded an EGN member (Which I am actually, under another name). But this is starting to border on the type of rhetoric that makes me wish a EGN member or two would come over here and let loose.

Your 75 cleric always gets groups, but we are liars and you know it, but not for you because you are such leet sauce? Finding it really hard to see any valid argument through the... whatever that is...

What I am hearing is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...




Sorry. Had to let that out...

[Cellan]

[Lisene]

Its a little difficult to analyse the argument when people may not group with others for far more reasons that "I already have a merc". All the old reasons of not finding a group still apply, except now there's the convenient excuse of "The Merc" for a cleric not getting a group. The main reason by far is still that people often won't group outside of guild. People can only speak for themselves and calling them liars is a bit rough not knowing what they're choosing to do. I'm one of the few in my guild that still groups outside, and I'll always go a cleric over my tier 5 merc in appropriate content. That to me doesn't just mean level and abililites. If I want to wrap up quests I can do with my merc, I won't be asking anyone else to join. But if I want a group I'll go the cleric for the human reactions they bring above all else, and the other non-healing that they do that mercs can't. And that has included a lvl 75 Cleric in OBF who I didn't know prior to inviting by the way. Yes I was worried about heals, but got the group moving once we hit 5 people, knowing I could bring out the merc if she wasn't up to it. It turned out that I barely had to pop a heal, and she was still tossing in Cleric Marks and the occasional nuke. I was more comfortable with that cleric than many lvl 85s I've ended up with in PUGs.

Clerics can still play effectively in vastly overpowered zones for their level. That's a huge bonus against other classes. Any cleric worth their salt can outplay a merc.

As to tanks, I don't feel threatened, though I've probably grown out of the gearing threat zone now. Even if they had better stats though, their AI against more than one mob is clunky at best. As with Cleric mercs, they're great for the single pull grind. Throw something out of the ordinary at them and the group is summoning their corpses.

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

Well, now that we have somewhat cleared that up I will add that some people enjoy the social aspect of the game BUT NOT the teamwork (grouping) aspect of the game. I think that is hardest for a lot of folks to realize. It isn't just the mercs. I actually group more now then I did before there were mercs.

Prior to mercs I ran five boxes instead of grouping. It isn't that I didn't want to group it was more that I didn't have the patience to do the things that you do when you stand around /LFG for hours on end. So I ended up just adding boxes till I could do whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted. That unfortunately though was a two edged sword. Once I had the five boxes running, I was hungry for all the loots as each of my boxes was a mouth to feed, and I couldn't advance unless I fed them all. For example, it is a well known practice that if you are boxing, you only get to roll for one of the 'alts' etc. and that a 'main' that was there always had priority over your 'alts'. So I'd be paying for each individual box as much as they were, 15 bucks a month, but they had more rights than me due to being this 'main' thing. It's a culture that built up, and pushed boxers like me out of grouping if they could afford to run that many accounts.

Now however, (except for the fact that I have moved most of the boxed accounts to the other active accounts) I tend to not be competing for the loots, so I am more willing to group and share. It was related to my perceived value of my time then, with mercs I am more free to let that go. I run three accounts now, and have room for others, and am not really that concerned about gearing up my Paladin, or my new ALT Sk because I can always pop the merc tank and carry on. And if I find someone really annoying now, I can just say 'dude, this isn't working for me. Gonna go do my own thing. Peace out.' And, go do my own thing.

What concerns me, as has happened in the past and the reason that I get involved in these types of discussions now, is the vocal minority clammers so loudly that it hijacks the game and the desert of leaving people continues. My experience and view is opposite by 180 degrees of what you are stating, that more people are leaving than ever. I am seeing more people coming back, and more people having fun. Now, some hardcores might leave because the content is too easy for them, but they would have left anyway. Reference my thread about hijacking games by hardcore gamers if you want to see my belief/evidence regarding this type of 'online' behaviour.

I also TRULY believe that developers and other members of Sony Online STEALTH view a lot of the posts on these and other boards, especially when they have to form an opinion on things. During the the big debate on Slays for example, I believe that Nodyin was here in 'stealth' mode viewing the thread as it developed, but that is just my opinion and I have no direct evidence of this. Just a suspicion. In any case, with that belief I want to clearly express that I (and hopefully other folks will back this if they believe it) that mercs are GOOD for the game.
Only information on actual subscription rates will really tell part of that tale.

Peace

[Brohg]

Nodyin is a registered user on these forums and not only observed that thread but commented in plain view. You can view his profile in the user directory to see that he last visited February 12.

If I were a developer I'd stay the hell away from third party community forums except in official capacity. All IPs are logged, and being "found out" lurking would initiate its own little storm of PR nonsense.

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

[Ughbash]

[Normy]

Just because you are a registered user does not mean you can't view the forums without being signed in, in which case his profile status of being here last on Feb 12th would be inaccurate. Not everyone logs in automatically to the site they are reading. IP's are logged for posts and when logged in, but I doubt they are logged for each and every view of the board that happens, and even if they are I also highly doubt someone is shifting through them trying to find one that might reference back to Sony. Those are usually kept for in case their is a problem, not for light reading.

As for staying away from third party community forums, since at least one developer is indeed a registered member here, I doubt they have any policy against it. Unless they have some policy against reading while on the job.

[Kakimor]

I don't know if Nodyin is an exception or not but I have seen posts from him here and eqtraders . From my own experience the SoE forums more often that not turn into pages and pages of flame fests and or non informative posts. You have to read until your eyes bleed to glean a few kernels of useful information and or data. Third party sites such as this one and several others are more or less more informative and to the point in discussing class related topics and concerns. Whether by their own initiative or by invitation, it is an indication to me that any developer that visits a third party site and reads the posts is being diligent in the pursuit of their duties and a sign to the player base that they care.

re mercs : Personally I am very much like Big Cat when it comes to boxing in my reasoning to do so. More often than not I don't have time to mess around LFG or putting together a group. Often the things I have on my to do list are things that others have long since done or completed and have no interest in doing. The introduction of Mercs has enabled me to better utilize my time on line and the freedom to do or attempt to accomplish what ever I choose without being at the whim of others needs or wants. I see them as a very useful tool nothing more, nothing less. Unfortunately I have had the misfortune of meeting a few people who for whatever reasons are less desirable than a merc, fortunately I know far more that are not so.

[Drazeena]

I love my mercs... but I would never put one ahead of a real person when playing any content.

Its always nice to have some friends when you want to start an open raid

[Cellan]

Ughbash, you just described taking a merc over a player. Whatever the reason of not wanting to group with a stranger is irrelevant. Mercs were designed to be an alternative in the case that a player to fill that role is not available, not as an alternative to avoid grouping outside of a circle. Their ability to perform so effectively that they meet the mark an any appropriate content, their lack of needs when things are dropping, and their complete convenience with very minut e maintenance has pushed them ahead of real players.

If a merc was taking the exp of 2 players, rolling on every appropriately useable drop (win = item decays), provided a risk in normal conditions of any half-ass worthy content, and would decide not to hunt some particular zones .... what would be said of them. Hell, give them just 1 of those conditions .... hog exp in lower level zones, hog loot in higher level zones and I am sure noone would be pulling them out of their pockets.

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

I just had a J5 merc tank go down, with 2 J5 merc clerics healing him vs. T4 named (Borskar)... I didn't help on healing as I usually do with druid or Shaman, to see if they could keep him healed. They dropped the ball, both in reactive.

If these are so much more powerful than 85 clerics, and Paladins, they need to all delete and head over to WOW.

So, basically you want them capable of killing orcs back on Orc hill, and the only option to be...

but round and round we go again.

[Ughbash]

[Ughbash]

[Cellan]

What I am saying is that there is about no penalty and pure convenience behind the merc..... even perks. They have virtually no demands but are just as fruitful as a player. Sure they take up 1 person for exp and cost a little plat every 15 minutes but in the end, the benefits they yield outweigh that little cost by a very huge margin.

I would like to see merc with stats equivalent to being maxed geared for the theme the player has progressed thru but with 0 AAs in power behind them. That meaning a J3 tank being geared fully in kithicor gear but tanking as warrior of that level would if the warrior had 0 AAs. Same for the cleric. J4 merc the same but in FoS gear. etc........ To me that would sound reasonable. I don't mind them being in the game, but them being so powerful to trump competent and developed players for desired spots I do mind, and I am aware that SoE never intended them for that, and believe reading about them still not being intended for that.

[Ughbash]

Well the healer mercs do effectively have 0 AA.

Making tank mercs that way also would make them useless, may say something about what a cleric can do vs. what a warrior can do.

As for hp/Mana *shrug* I could agree with that, which would make a tier 5 merc equivalent to someone geared in full tier 4 (visible and non visbile) Considering they would then get a healing focus that might actually make them MORE powerful though.

And I still consider them to be too "twitty" to be as good as a competent player equivalenty geared player (by your gearing standards).

Anyways I suspect we will continue to disagree on the value of mercs, I see my tier 5 merc as vastly inferior to the cleric I am used to hanging out with, however still good enough that I can fight in areas which need a healer if she is playing an alt.

And some people consider 95 plat every 15 min to be expensive, others do not.

[shiftie]

it is apples and oranges...

you have to consider where this conversation is being housed - a paladin forum. Our experience is going to vary greatly in comparision to other classes. The cleric merc is supplemented by our healing abilities causing them to be vastly overpowered. A paladin played well can make a shitty cleric real or artificial SEEM to be amazing. Take a raid geared paladin and place him into a group setting with a Tier V merc and you have created god mode. There is no gap in heals that a paladin can't fill. So for your experience you find the merc to be underpowered to your cleric friend. I grouped with a real cleric and didn't supplement heal because I dont' feel I should have to otherwise the cleric isn't doing their job and the cleric let me die in which case I'd much rather have the merc because they at least don't disappoint me. If a cleric isn't keeping me alive they aren't pulling their weight... in which case I'm popping a merc, they don't compete for gear for my friends. A cleric merc can't heal or cure as well as a real one but that person has to be paying attention and they have to be able to play their class. Again our opinion of mercs vs real clerics is skewed.

bleh
shiftie

[Peaky]

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

[Ughbash]

[Brohg]

But if you put the second on Efficient, it will cast Promised heals, HoTs, and CHeal, while the Reactive one uses Frantic and Light heals.

[Cellan]

This is a paladin forum so this will be my last post regarding Clerics as I am referring to mercs in general. Perhaps some few people feel relieved to not "have to" play a character, but for those few there are many that are upset for not "getting to" play their character.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts ... _id=143835

[Normy]

Much like I've felt for every major upgrade the other two tanking classes have recieved expansion after expansion, and we were constantly told we were too powerful to upgrade. Everyone in the game was given three major tank classes, and we as paladins were the weakest ones for most of my time in EQ. The difference is now its screwing with what used to be the clerics domain.

Sure, there were druids and shammies, but until lately they were so far behind the cleric that basically clerics were required to do any modern content. Ask the druids if that claim is baseless. Now there really is an alternative to clerics, and they don't like it. I can relate, but in the past I was told to suck it up or leave.

Course if all the clerics left raiding would be impossible and the game would crumble, but I'm not seeing the mass exoduse(spelling?) yet.

Love em or hate em, I don't see it likely to change.

[Caeelar]

The idea behind a merc is that it should be able to take the place of a PC without any loss. They still can't think, and that's a pretty big reason to get a real person in there. That said, merc tanks are warriors. A tier 5 warrior should outtank a tier 5 paladin every time. Bottom line is, your merc is tanking as if it were a real player. A tier 5 warrior *should* be able to tank better then a tier 5 paladin. I think mercs are just fine the way they are.

[Ceniden]

[Caeelar]

One thing that does bother me about mercs though. An FD class shouldn't be able to suspend a merc, then flop to any camp they want and pop him out. It's kinda game breaking. FD class could let there group die, drag all of them to some deep, intentionally hard to get to camp, pop out the merc.. it's like coth without a mage. Some camps should be difficult to get to. It's part of the challenge of the game.

[Ughbash]

[Cellan]

[shiftie]

[Cellan]

LOL that's retarded. Man up and tank better? First of all, tanking better has nothing to do with manning up to shit so get over yourself. It has to do with some people in high-end raid gear and others not.

And yes, it is about greed. I don't give a rats about whether my paladin gets invited to a group or not, in fact I never announce LFG or put the flag up. But assing out classes for a bot is not the intention of them regardless, and that is what they are doing. Playing as people see fit is fine. But insisting they should be so powerful and such a freebie at next to no cost is beside that fact.

[shiftie]

[Ughbash]

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

[Thexner]

Heres my 2 cents. I am now a very casual player but at one time I was a very hardcore player. I have a 85 ranger and 81 shammy and currently teir 3 mercs (one tank, one healer). The idea of the mercs is what got me to come out of semi retirement and pay for SoD x 2 and subscription x2. As a casual player (30min to 2 hours per session) I now have the ablilty to actually play the game, do quests, kill named, do some group content without looking for a group.

I can honestly say this is the most fun I have had playing EQ in many many years.

A few have talked about teir 5 mercs needing to be nerfed. I am currently working on FoS stuff and when I do group, most of those people do not have teir 5 mercs so I cant honestly say if they need to be or not. But what I can say is the teir 3 mercs do a decent job of keeping me alive in FoS and Kaseora stuff. Its not easy by any means, and I still do wipe.

I think with a nerf of the mercs to become less "powerful" this would decrease the enjoyment of the game for players like myself. I am glad they made a change like this which allow me not wait for months to get just a few upgrades. I dont even mind the XP hit the mercs cost me. I think those that complain are the select few that see the majority of players getting decent group gear becoming closer in stats to the chosen ones.

Again, just my 2 cents.

Here is my Rangers magelo (close enough to current): My shammy is fairly gimp, 15k unbuffed with about 300 aa's mostly heals.

[Cellan]