Knight of the Truthbringer
and PoN Admin
Posts: 3249
(2/29/04 3:28 am)
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ezSupporter
Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
All of the calculations for weapon affinity got me wondering about the base proc rate of our innate procs. Specifically, I wanted to make sure that the baseline for the proc rate was twice per minute, as we've been assuming.
In addition to that, I was also curious to test whether dexterity has any effect on innate procs. When I left the game, there were no innate proc buffs. When I came back to the game, I read that it had been tested and shown that dexterity has no impact on proc rates for those buffs. I had no reason to doubt this, though I never saw any of the parses.
When I first came back to the game, I wanted to determine whether Divine Might and Instrument of Nife procced at the same rate, so I could determine what proportion of mobs needed to be undead before it became reasonable to use IoN. What I found was that the two processed at the same rate - about 1.3 times per minute. I didn't worry about varying my dexterity, but it was around 120-130 when I did those tests.
Tonight I tested Ward of Nife by attacking the invulnerable banker in Kaladim (this makes it easy to search for "this spells works only on the the undead" messages). I did this for two casts of Ward of Nife, so slightly over an hour in two different conditions - one with high dexterity (263) and one with low dexterity (90). I used a Black Handled Bone Breaker as the weapon - the only buffs were Focus of the Seventh, Strength of Diaku (for high dexterity) and, of course, Ward of Nife.
I did not change haste or weapon between tests. I could have gotten my dex 9 points lower by removing my cloak of flames, but I did not want to muddy the data. We "know" that haste should have zero effect on procs per minute, but that's something I'll verify later.
Two hours isn't a lot of time for testing. However, statistical measures take into account sample size. I defined a sample as ONE MINUTE of swing and the dependent measure was the number of procs during each minute of the parse. However, before even doing the statistics, it was pretty "obvious" there was an effect:
Low Dexterity
Dexterity: 90
Total Procs: 75
Total Time: 1 hour, 16 minutes
Mean Procs per Minute: 0.99
Standard Deviation: 0.99
Range: 0 - 4 procs/minute
High Dexterity
Dexterity: 263
Total Procs: 156
Total Time: 1 hour, 18 minutes
Mean Procs per Minute: 2.00
Standard Deviation: 1.30
Range: 0 - 6 procs/minute
Comparison
First, the proc rate doubled between the two conditions. Seeing a 100% change, even with a sample this "small" is pretty compelling. Note also that the range is large for the High Dex condition - this large is range is also the reason for the large standard deviation in that condition (i.e., there's more variability around the mean because the range is larger).
I performed a two-tailed Student's t-test to determine whether the results were statistically significant.
t (152) = 5.4395, p < 0.0001
Based on my sample size, the odds of seeing this difference BY CHANCE would be LESS than 1 in 10,000. Note also that I performed a 2-tailed test, which is more rigorous than a 1-tailed test (if I were going to form an alternative hypothesis, it would have been that high dex would lead to more procs than low dex, which would allow for a 1-tailed test).
I've also created a graph that shows pretty well what happens between the two conditions:
The bars show the proportion of minutes that each number of procs occurred. For example, nearly 40% of the minutes in the sample had ZERO procs in the low dexterity condition. Fewer than 15% of minutes in the high dexterity sample had zero procs.
If you look only at the yellow bars of the histogram, you'll see what approximates a normal distribution (i.e., a "bell curve"). The peak is in the middle at 2 procs per minute, and the likelihood drops as you move away in either direction. For the low dexterity condition, the most likely event is NO PROC, with decreasing probability as you move away from zero.
Interestingly, these results fit in with the results I got almost 2 years ago, that with about 125 dexterity, I saw 1.3 procs per minute. If we assume linearity, we'd expect about a 1.5 procs per minute rate at 175 dexterity.
Looking at the data (e.g., via the histogram), this doesn't appear a chance event, which would be more typified by seeing some outliers, though it could be the case that all of the zero proc minutes in the low dexterity condition were just "bad luck." (Very, very bad luck given the level of statistical significance.)
Obviously, one study can still be prone to error. I might have gotten, really, really lucky with procs in the first sample or really unlucky in the second sample. I plan to repeat these tests again tomorrow if I have time. If I can manage it, I plan to counterbalance tomorrow and do the low dexterity test first (had to do high dex before my shaman buffs faded).
Currently, however, it is reasonable to reject the hypothesis that dexterity has no impact on proc rates of our combat innate buffs.
EDIT: Corrected the high dex and low dex conditions to show the proper amount of dexterity (263 and 90, respectively).
My Magelo
His Faithful Squire, The Draw Druid
Edited by: Romidar at: 2/29/04 10:16 am
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Gunzo TZ
Noble Squire
Posts: 52
(2/29/04 4:02 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
Rom, can you have a quick peak at your data. I think you have the dex amounts switched.
Gunzo
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Caillaseth
Wandering Knight
Posts: 221
(2/29/04 4:25 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
Sorry to think this is funny Romidar, but it seems to me that some people argued for a long time that Dex indeed mattered.
So we might not have had proof of such.
I would like to know more about this as I have (ok yes I am retired now) a lvl 30ish Dex-Paladin, where as not useful, it was a blast to go through undeads with IoN and Ghoulbane, knowing for sure that yes, dex matters a whole lot.
My guess is that it also matters on lvl being somewhat scaled, the higher the level the less Dex might matter.
I have never parsed, and I don't much care to, the fun I have had with this Paladin is not counted in numbers really. But comparing my two paladins first with dex about 100ish other with 240ish, there is no doubt.
Now what would be interesting to find out if procs as Ghoulbane and IoN are connected or if the one procs the other has less chance of proccing after.
My observations which are only from mob to mob, I understand is not in any way a steady information, procs varied wildly.
And another observation.. I believe if you use Yaulp, it adds the chance to proc. I know it sounds strange, but these are observations I made from playing this character. They might be coincidence, but you know how those non-number-people are.
I would be curious about the dex-data, and if you could bring some light into that, I would indeed appreciate that. Even if only to say 'I knew it !'. Because it seems you or any of the other trusty Paladins have to prove a point down to the numbers for it to be generally accepted.
Lady Sennyilea, ret 59 Paladin
and Zaasa, ret 30 Dex-paladin
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Romidar
Knight of the Truthbringer
and PoN Admin
Posts: 3251
(2/29/04 10:15 am)
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ezSupporter
Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
Heh, I did put the wrong dex amounts in the bulleted points above - they are correct in the text and on the graph. Thanks for pointing it out - fixing it now.
As for some people thinking that dex increased combat innates, but without proof... an old saying is "even a broken clock is correct twice per day." Belief without proof just doesn't mean anything. People also believe wholeheartedly that dexterity increased their hit rate, and it doesn't (I stay right around 50% accuracy whether I have 120 dexterity or 305 dexterity). In this case, though, the people who believed that dex has an effect might be right (it's unfortunate that none of them were willing to actually test it).
I'll say some things similar to what I said in my ATK thread, though. The game MIGHT have changed since when these tests were originally done; unlike the ATK issues, it doesn't seem likely that we were unable to test the appropriate levels of dexterity (I'm only at 8 points over the old cap in the high dexterity condition).
I'm going to do some more testing today to get another sample to verify the results. If someone else would like to do the same test, it would be nice to have independent verification.
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Ariakkas
Noble Squire
Posts: 61
(2/29/04 3:07 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
back when these test were done, i seem to remember people posting logs and logs saying dex didn't do squat for innate combat procs.
i seem to remember huge debates about it to, just wish i could remember, im not bored enough to search pages and pages back tho lol.
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Romidar
Knight of the Truthbringer
and PoN Admin
Posts: 3253
(2/29/04 4:53 pm)
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ezSupporter
Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
Those posts have been long, long gone - they didn't exist here as of two years ago, and unfortunately were not preserved in the tomes of knowledge.
Anyone know who did the tests originally? I'm curious as to the methodology they used.
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Romidar
Knight of the Truthbringer
and PoN Admin
Posts: 3254
(2/29/04 6:57 pm)
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ezSupporter
Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
Some more data collected today - so far, just for the low dexterity (90 dex) condition. Note that these are entirely new data and do not include the data provided in the first post on the thread - they are independent data points.
I am counterbalancing the order of the tests, so whereas I did high dexterity and then low dexterity previously, I am reversing the order this time. I wouldn't expect any "carryover" effects, but just being safe.
Here is the summary of the new parse:
Low Dexterity
Dexterity: 90
Total Procs: 105
Total Time: 1 hour, 46 minutes (106 minutes)
Mean Procs per Minute: 0.991
Standard Deviation: 0.845
Range: 0 - 3 procs/minute
The consistency with the previous post is striking - 0.99 vs. 0.991 procs per minute.
The pattern, with respects to how many minutes have 0 procs, 1 proc, 2 procs, etc., is also very similar:
I'm currently conducted the high dexterity test again and will post when I have more data. It should be mentioned, though, that the two cases I have here of 90 dexterity are in stark contrast to what people have posted previously at high dexterity. For example, if you examine Caladel's data from the weapon affinity parse (the "hard data" post stickied on the forum), he shows a proc rate of 1.67 procs per minute; however, his parse at 305 dexterity also includes a weapon proc which, as explained in that thread and elsewhere, reduces the frequency of the combate innate proc.
In short, only one proc can fire per combat round and the weapon proc takes precedence over the combate innate - meaning that every round during which the weapon proc fires, the combate innate cannot. I calculated what his combate innate proc rate would have been without the weapon proc in the "Ripostes and procs" thread, and predicted it would be approximately 2 per minute (2.05 per minute, if I remember correctly). My finding in the original high dex condition shown here is consistent with Caladel's parses; the low dexterity finding is not at all consistent with his parse or my own. This consistitutes compelling, converging evidence that dexterity does change the combate innate proc rate - whether it did in the past or not.
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Luthair
Supreme Lord Protector
Posts: 2599
(2/29/04 7:02 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
I seem to recall that when spell procs were first implemented they'd go off seemingly at random (were not tied to swings). That later got changed when people realised that casting spells reset your swing timer. (Which was also later changed for hybrids)
Luthair [65 Lord Protector]
-Miniluth [25 Epic Beastlord]
Alakazaam [64 Arch Mage]
-Gagbaz [46 Shaman]
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Romidar
Knight of the Truthbringer
and PoN Admin
Posts: 3255
(2/29/04 8:44 pm)
| Edit | Del
ezSupporter
Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
Well the server or zone went down, but I captured 81 minutes of data at high dexterity. As you'll see below, the effect is very clear and is a direct replication of the parses I performed yesterday.
High Dexterity
Dexterity: 263
Total Procs: 167
Total Time: 1 hour, 21 minutes (81 minutes)
Mean Procs per Minute: 2.06
Standard Deviation: 1.28
Range: 0 - 5 procs/minute
Compare this with my first parse above that showed a 2 proc per minute average, and Caladel's which showed a computed proc rate of 2.05 per minute.
I performed a t-test on these data (high dex vs. low dex) as well:
t (185) = 6.8836, p < 0.0001
As with the t-test performed previously, the difference between proc rate in the low and high dex conditions would occur by chance in less than 1 in 10,000 repetitions of this "experiment."
To show the distribution of proc rates:
This graph combines the high and low dex conditions. The distribution of the high dex condition is not quite as "peaked" as in the previous test, but it should be clear that it is much more likely to get 1 or more procs per minute in the high dex condition than in the low dex condition.
When I get some time, I'm going to try this experiment with just a weapon (actually augment) proc to determine whether the effect of dexterity looks the same; however, I currently have little doubt that it will show the same pattern (Caladel's previously posted data already shows the high dexterity condition).
I've no trouble believing that something changed since the original tests were done - EQ is such a dynamic game that it's never a bad idea to replicate old findings (the only problem is when someone says, "I believe otherwise but don't like to parse" - that really doesn't add anything, unfortunately).
My Magelo
His Faithful Squire, The Draw Druid
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Varutia Silvon
Lord Crusader
Posts: 1134
(3/1/04 2:32 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
Look like planar power may not such a bad buy anymore, increase raw attack from str, increase dex for procs, increase hps from sta.
It also looks good when your stats capped at 305 instead of 280 Razz
Varutia Silvonesit
Equipment profile
Lord Protector of Agartha
Terris Thule
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Ariakkas
Noble Squire
Posts: 62
(3/1/04 12:57 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
planar power was never a bad buy to begin with IMO,it's well worth getting if your hitting the sta cap
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Quaymar
Registered User
Posts: 123
(3/1/04 2:29 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
Romidar, Are you sure haste has no impact? Seems to me that more swings per minute should = more procs. Since you like to parse, why not try a high dex parse with the SoV haste buff? Just curious Smile
Quaymar Zeratul, 65 Lord Protector, Member of Eternal Sovereign
For my friends and allies I shall give my life in battle, our enemies I will destroy!
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Caladel
Posts: 2864
(3/1/04 3:05 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
Haste will have an effect when you have multiple proc possibliities per cobat round, (ie weapon proc+combat innate, or weapon proc+augment proc+combat innate) as was brought up in the other threads re this discussion. The faster you swing the less the possibility that a conflict will occur in 2 or 2 procs trying to go off at the same time, in which case you lose the 2nd or 3rd proc that round.
A lot of parsing has been done on weapon procs to show that haste doesnt affect the procs/time, but does change the procs/swing or more accurately procs/round(goes down to peserve procs/time). Again if you had an augmented proc increased haste would incrase the rate of teh 2nd proc gonig off because of less conflicts.
Worth retesting combat innates to see if haste still doesnt affect them. But, i dont think anything has changed in that regard.
All proc rates should be tied directly to your current effective delay(hasted, slowed, base, whatever).
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Romidar
Knight of the Truthbringer
and PoN Admin
Posts: 3261
(3/1/04 3:36 pm)
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ezSupporter
Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
As Caladel says, haste should make no difference at all in the procs per minute measure. You will swing more times in that minute, so your procs per swing will actually go down.
Note that I'm at 36% haste in the parse, not unhasted. If I can drag my friends enchanter over, I'll go ahead and measure again with haste since it is possible that matters have change.
I know there has been recent parses on it over on the shaman boards (at least a few months ago), but I'm sure they were testing weapon procs, not innate procs.
EDIT: Testing it right now. Kept my dexterity at 263 by removing a couple of pieces of gear (SoV has a dex component). Will post the results later.
Edited by: Romidar at: 3/1/04 4:00 pm
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HendrekDoom
Posts: 188
(3/1/04 4:51 pm)
| Edit | Del
ezSupporter
Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
Could have just taken off your CoF, or still could to vary the tests from 0->100 rather than just 36->100.
Hendrek Doomsayr
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Caillaseth
Wandering Knight
Posts: 223
(3/1/04 5:32 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
" (the only problem is when someone says, "I believe otherwise but don't like to parse" - that really doesn't add anything, unfortunately). "
I can't say I appreciate this Romidar, when I had doubts about Dex and Procs not being related, I came to this same board and said so. I do not think it is everyones duty to parse everything they figure out. I understand that of course, something like this might have not necessarily needed to sit in the dark for this long, but I was a semi-casual player, parsing is as far from fun as I can only imagine.
And fun is still what I am about and I did not need numbers.
(not that I had a clue how to parse in the first place).
If this gets parsed out, yes I will read it, and I will try to understand it, and yes, I will be happy, because its not easy to be of a different opinion AND to have the facts to prove it.
This game is like you say quite dynamic, I have no idea in which patch they might have changed the Dex-issue. And it makes not really a difference unless people compare parses from then.
The only thing learned might be that younger Paladins, not so experienced in the game also have something note worthy to say.
Lady Sennyilea ret.59 Paladin
Zaasa ret.30ish Dex-Paladin
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Duradam
Cavalier
Posts: 327
(3/1/04 5:51 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
But the only value of an opionion with nothing but a feeling to back it up is to inspire someone else to go parse to prove/disprove that opionion. Saying you don't want to parse, but you have an idea for a test is practical, but saying that you are sure just because you are isn't helpfull. There is nothing wrong with not parsing. But please don't expect a vauge opinion to be viewed as valuable data. It doesn't make you more or less of a Paladin, to not parse. It does mean you shouldn't cite your opionion as fact, but not that you can't enjoy the game just as much. Smile
I personally greatly enjoy reading these boards over others where I simply hear "that spell sucks" or "hps>all" without ever seeing a shred of evidance.
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Caillaseth
Wandering Knight
Posts: 224
(3/1/04 6:23 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
I devoted a character to it, I would say that is more then a mere feeling. When I made Zaasa I asked about parses, not because i had a feeling, but because I saw the difference playing both my paladins.
The issue is not wether I parsed or not, or who is right or not, I think often times people are used to something, or perhaps because they do not believe things changed.This is no different then with CHA and Pacify.
Stuff in the game changes constantly, theoretically there should be parses checking back if the old data still works after each patch.
I am sorry I am arguing it now, and not back then ( about 1.5 years ago probably), or not having have enough 'feeling' to get one of the parser guys to check up on it. But I am glad it is getting parsed now. So lets see what Romidar finds out.
Senny and Zaasa.
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Rorrak
Wandering Knight
Posts: 180
(3/2/04 12:52 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
Firstly its nice to see that innate procs do get better. I must admit that I tend to forget to rebuff with them timeously and so have always discounted their proc rates in my parses. With the buff being down for anywhere between 1 and 5 minutes I realized my data was dirty.
I'll confirm that haste still has no effect on proc rates. I parsed around a week ago. 2/23/2004 and 2/24/2004
I took two large samples of data before I started getting Weapon Affinity. One hasted and one Not hasted and both times my weapons procs averaged out at 2ppm.
The samples were 4 hours each on the Katta banker.
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Romidar
Knight of the Truthbringer
and PoN Admin
Posts: 3263
(3/2/04 8:49 am)
| Edit | Del
ezSupporter
Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
Quote:Stuff in the game changes constantly, theoretically there should be parses checking back if the old data still works after each patch.
Yes, that'd be great, but even those of us who love parsing actually like to play the game.
What I commented on earlier is the way many people will challenge ideas based on their "observations," or "experience," or "feelings" and then expect other people to either believe them or disprove them.
My everyday experience shows that the world is flat. I've never observed any phenomena to show me that the world is round (sure, I've seen pictures... but according to the Flat Earth Society, they are fakes anyway). If I popped into a physicist forum and said that, "You guys should check to see if the world is still round because the world does change," they'd rightfully be a tad annoyed with me.
I've not seen anyone go out and do a parse to re-verify that a certain effect has NOT changed based on someone saying that it seems like it has. For example, the only reason I did the parse is because my test of close to 2 years ago showed a proc rate of 1.3 per minute for Divine Might, but Caladel's parse shows a theoretical rate of 2.05 per minute.
There have been at least a dozen times where someone has said, "I think dexterity DOES effect combate innate procs," but I am well aware of the ways in which people are tricked by probabilities into believing that such a thing is true. Until there is hard data, it's just a feeling. I guarantee you that there are people in the game who feel like dexterity increases their accuracy.
People still show up here and say it. Has it motivated anyone to go back and test whether this is the case? No. What would motivate people if someone parsed showing that after they got planar power, their accuracy went from 50% to 52.5%... and the change was reliable. You can bet there'd be people doing tests at that point.
I'll also say that I FELT like my innate proc rate was increased when my wife's shaman became a group member - my dexterity doubled (about 150 to 305) and I felt like the rate went up. I doubt my own naturalistic observation just like I am skeptical of anyone's. None of the parsers I use will show you your proc rate, however, so it's not something I could "notice" in my parses - my non-melee DPS did go up, but that could just as easily have been because the mobs were now being maloed, for example.
I really don't mean this at all to be a direct criticism of you or of people who don't parse. What it IS a criticism of is the concept of saying, "See, I knew that everyone was wrong about this based on my own experience." That's why I mentioned the broken clock analogy. No one "knows" it until it's tested - and I'll take 3 year old parses over gut feeling any day of the week. I was one of the people who originally showed that strength had almost no impact on damage output, but I was willing to completely change my mind based on a parse - not on the dozens of people who "felt" otherwise. That's being empirical. (I should note that saying that "many people believe X" is a logical fallacy - "appeal to large numbers.")
There's nothing at all wrong with not parsing. There's also nothing wrong with completely discounting the opinions of people who don't parse when they are making a fundamentally empirical claim without hard evidence.
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Romidar
Knight of the Truthbringer
and PoN Admin
Posts: 3264
(3/2/04 9:22 am)
| Edit | Del
ezSupporter
Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
I redid the test with Speed of Vallon + Cloak of Flames. I am not doing two conditions for this since we already have a baseline; also, if 64% haste isn't enough to show a significant difference, a new baseline with 0% haste is relatively. (Also, I took the question more as, "what happens to proc rate when someone casts haste on you?" since by the level that people get combat innates they almost certainly have a haste item.)
In any case, I was only able to parse 49.2 minutes, but the proc rate is unsurprising: 2.05 per minute.
I just wanted to comment on the benefits of Planar Power. It is a decent buy once you have around 150 AA's or so. The defensive and most of the offensive AA's, as well as the healing AA's, are almost certainly much more compelling with respect to their cost/benefit ratio.
Also, Planar Power is only a good buy if you are frequently at 280 on most skills.
A guestimate of the impact of the AA on just melee performance:
+25 strength: ~2% increase for melee DPS
+25 dexterity: ~10% increase in proc rate?
+25 agility: 3-4 AC?
+25 stamina: ~80 hp
Of course that costs 10 AA points. If I had to choose between that and, say, 3 levels of Lighting Reflexes or Innate Defense... or between than and Divine Stun, etc. Planar Power gets knocked lower.
It's not a BAD buy if you are at the stat caps, it's just that there are many other good AA's you can buy for 10 points.
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Valya Wanderfoot
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Caillaseth
Wandering Knight
Posts: 228
(3/2/04 10:45 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
If my post sounded like critisism I am sorry for that. The 'I knew It' -exclamation is ment more like a statement to myself in being simply happy or proud that indeed my dex pally is proven to be 'correct' after your data. Its sort of the pat on my back, saying yes, your feelings-observations were right. Even my friends thought I had finally lost it when I made Zaasa.
I did assume that the dex-proc return was scaled depending on level, therefore the lvl 30 paladin shows such difference much more then the lvl 60 or 65(also one proc is a huge difference at lvl 30), and for all I really know about the upper game, the difference in maxing dex for more procs might have been neglectable.All in All, I assumed dex made a difference because yes it seemed like it, but I was not willing to argue the fact outloud on the board because ..yes I wasn't 100 pct sure because yes, I myself also believe in hard data Smile
I know that many people, claim all sorts of things, horses with 6 legs etc, I know it is hard to tell the difference between someone having a faint idea or someone really having a made a possible observation, sure I am sad no one took me for real when ever, but I do understand why, and I am sorry I did not take more time to stand behind it.
Now if you would also take in possible consideration the yaulp thing. Only observation and not fact, but I did have the 'feeling' it was connected )p I noticed a higher chance of a proc right after a spell cast(also not necessary yaulp), why that would be in any relation with each other I am clueless. And it might simply be a wrong observation.
Thank you for taking the time to do these parses anyhow. Many people do depend on them and go after the information you find out.
Lady Sennyilea ret 59 Pally
Zaasa ret30ish dex Pally
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Freevudo
Squire
Posts: 39
(3/2/04 11:09 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
I believe that if a proc would have happened during a spellcast, then it will happen immediatly after the spell completes its cast.
I know this because my cleric always procs right after a CH is done, if he was in melee when I began casting and the mob is still in range on completion.
-Freevudo
Tunare
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Romidar
Knight of the Truthbringer
and PoN Admin
Posts: 3266
(3/2/04 11:11 am)
| Edit | Del
ezSupporter
Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
My guess about the spell casting thing is that the chance to proc is determined while you are casting your spell, and if it succedes, it has to wait until the spell is finished casting.
If the spell is long enough, you might get more than one chance to proc (though ultimately only one proc as an outcome), so it would seem that procs are more likely after a proc.
Yaulp wouldn't have that effect, though.
The problem is that there's no good way to test it - maybe if you had a way (e.g., with a gamepad) to repeatedly cast a spell at regular intervals.
However, if the situation were "real," it would mean that a person casting a lot of spells would have to proc more in a given time than a person not proccing. (Otherwise individual rounds are not independent, and they certainly appear to be.)
The other part is simply illusary causality. We are built to see causality whenever we take an action and an event follows, even if there is no fundamental correlation - such as repeatedly pressing an elevator button because we perceive that it makes it arrive faster (even though it doesn't). The human mind just needs repeated co-occurrence of two events to see causality, even though it takes more than that for us to conclude empirically that there is a causal relationship (forgive me, David Hume).
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Caladel
Posts: 2868
(3/2/04 12:49 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
Add +25 wisdom ~150 mana to your PP list rom hehe.
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Romidar
Knight of the Truthbringer
and PoN Admin
Posts: 3268
(3/2/04 12:52 pm)
| Edit | Del
ezSupporter
Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
I was just listing melee effects, as I mentioned in the post. Smile
Thanks for the info - though I'll "never" see 305 wisdom. Wink
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Duradam
Cavalier
Posts: 334
(3/2/04 12:57 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
oi! I wish. I wouldn't even get the extra agi, unless we hada shaman keeping FA up. Still, that made me laugh. And if we want to nitpick.... those are stats, not skills. <ducks and hides>
Once again, thanks for the great data Romidar. It won't change how i play in the slightest, or my current AA goals, but having the knowledge is always better than being ignorant. Thanks again Smile
Duke Duradam Drunkensmythe
Lord Protector o' Brell of 65 Virtues
Underlord, Arcane and Honor, Druzzil Ro
GrandMaster Smithy of 250 Lessons
Master Baiter, Jewelcrafter, Fletcher, Baker, Brewer, and Potter of 200 Lessons
Master Tailor of 184 Stiches
Edited by: Duradam at: 3/2/04 1:06 pm
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Keppy Kep Kep
Squire
Posts: 23
(3/2/04 1:01 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Dexterity and Innate Procs: Might be an effect!
i've read that book Smile
