Corruption resist

[Kalevalatar]

I have a question about corruption resists and buffing it for raids. I have a faint memory about reading a post long time ago either on some druid forum or EQ live forums, that corruption resist was somehow bugged and because of that it didn't matter if you buffed it or not, corruption based AEs would hit you anyways. This atleast seemed to be true when we started raiding TSS+ content.

Is my memory completely wrong? I would appreciate any input about how useful it is to buff corruption resist for raids

-Kale

[riou]

It can help you resist some things in tss (but kinda rare to resist), buffing it is fine if buff slots free, just for the chance of resist, but its not a live or die buff, as most of the AE's arent "strong"(that is they are like normal ae's and dont really hurt) anyway.

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

I was getting some nasty mana/end drain type dots when doing the crytallines in Warrens.

Played havoc on my box group as the cleric wouldn't cure till the fight was over, and herself last, if at all so she quite often ended up OOM.

Another interesting thing to note is the cyrstallines also hit me with random timer increases. Quite often the in combat timer would have a 2 - 4 minute timer. I suspect that is a bug (or a really interesting change of detrimental effect that I wasn't aware of), but it also played holy havoc on my merc healers mana pool.

Offhand, anyone know if these were intended effects or bugs? I really should have /bugged it to find out, but slipped my mind til this post.

In any case, I had never gotten the corruption resist spells as I had no intention of raiding. I am also finished the T4 (using Raspers coding) chest pieces on my guys so won't likely be going back to the crytallines... ever if I can avoid it.

Edit: Note, the reason I say these are corruption based is - they appear in the song window and Cleric is casting cure corruption to remove them. I also found that 1, sometimes 2 casts of Radiant cure would also pick them off.

[Brohg]

You can get meaningful levels of resists on corruption effects if you dedicate all your augments to doing so, and then buff yourself. It takes ALL your augments AND the buff to get meaningful resists, though, so most people just toss it out the window and treat them as unresistable - just heal or cure.

[Kalevalatar]

I checked those Crystalline mobs since I don't think I've seen non raid mob yet which casts any spells that are corruption based (or maybe I have but haven't payed attention ). They had several spells depending what kind of Crystalline mob it was, but one had spell called Crystalline Negatis, 250 mana DoT which increases corruption counter by 9. Good to know!

[Unmei]

I feel like there have been corruption based effects on group mobs for a while, but the only one I could remember (Decay Armor from the Phoboplasms in Hills of Shade) is actually just unresistable, but requires a corruption cure to REMOVE, which isn't quite the same as actually being corruption based. x.x

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

I don't know if this one is resistable or not Unmei, so it may well just be the next variant of that spell.I can't access Lucy from work anymore (recent random change..) so can't check.

I do know that it is curable by cure corruption. It puts on a 9 corruption counter so 2 casts of the http://www.antonius-bayle.org/kumbaja/s ... p?id=18468

required to get it if you are a shaman or druid (but will remove from whole group which is nice) or one cast of cleric http://www.antonius-bayle.org/kumbaja/s ... p?id=18306 for single target.
The group available version (rk 2) for shm/druid removes 8. The raid available (rk 3) removes 10...

That's kind of rude if you ask me. Giving us a group(and by group I mean as opposed to a raiding shm/dru) remove corruption then making what appears to be one of the few group (again as opposed to raid target) corruption based spells put 1 counter above what a grouping shaman/druid can cast... Don't get me wrong, I am all for the raid guys getting higher stuff etc. but this just strikes me as being off... by 1!

Waring, if you happen to read this, could you just ask that question sometime in the future of devs? What I am wondering is was this intentional, or just a random number that got picked, that it was higher than what our cure minor corruption could cure.

If so, it would be reasonable to ask that this negatis and similar corruption based spells in the grouping game be reduced to 8 counters to be in line with being removed with one cast of the grouping shaman/druids spell.

If it was intentional, well. Ok. Still seems rude, but at least there is then some reason to it.

[Tanom]

I doubt it Bigcat as the debuff from the slimes was from SoF and the highest counter for corruption we had on our group cure was a 6 and that was raid. You are now talking about a spell that is an expansion ahead and seriously doubt that the devs would have planned a whole year in advanced to make it 1 point ahead of the current Rank 2 group cure.

[Kalevalatar]

As a "mid tier" raider (about to finish TBS, only Two Gods left, starting MMM raids as soon as we finish flaggings), I have noticed that it seems to be kinda 50/50. Some AEs can be cured with 1 cast (Cure Corruption rank3) and some need two casts, because the counter is just 1 or 2 more than what druid cure removes. So yes it is annoying, but I have always thought its intentional. We didn't even get a new single target corruption cure with SoD, that would have made atleast some TSS and FC events slightly easier.

[Tanom]

For Druids and Shaman our single target corruption cure is quite powerful if you can get the rank 3 version from TSS raids as it is 8 counters.

[Kalevalatar]

I wouldn't call it powerful since clerics who are the 3rd class to get cure corruption, have way better spell They even got upgrade at level 84. Abolish Corruption rank2 cures 27 counters and earlier version from level 79 Vitiate Corruption rank2 cures 18 counters. Not saying druids and shammies should have same cures as clerics, they are supposed to be better healers/curers, but I do think our cure is rather gimp compared to that.

[Tanom]

Well I believe the reason that the corruption counter that the Cleric's have is because they can only cure 1 person at a time. We (druids and shamans) however can cure our group AND single target (which Paladins and Rangers have as well) so it makes sense that the Cleric's single target version would be more powerful in both the thought of them being the top healers and that we do have a better advantage.

[Kalevalatar]

That is very true and I am happy we got group cure upgrade, although most of the events I've done, have single target DoTs, so I have used group cure far less than single target cure. Off hand, one event in FC is the only place where I recall using group corruption cure. Not sure what kind of AEs there are in MMM and Crystallos raids though, will hopefully see just in few weeks

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

All good for raiding and stuff, but I fundamentally believe that the GROUP cure, available to the grouping shm/dru should cure a group in a group zone.

So, in the case I was discussing, the Crystallines cast a spell that puts on 9 corruption counters.

The rk 2 of shm/dru cure removes 8 corruption counters.

I get it if the rk 1 did 8, and rk 2 did nine. ok. That makes sense to me. You gotta get out there and find/buy/grab up the best available to you as a group player, to cure a group in a group setting.

[Unmei]

I disagree with your assertion, Bigcat. A 9 counter effect can be cured on one person in a single cast of the cleric cure, or from the entire group in two casts. That seems balanced. It would be strange for me for the group cure to instantly cure the whole group in the same number of casts it would take a cleric to do one person. What would be the point of the cleric having a more powerful single cure if the group cure cured everything in one throw? Clerics group too you know. If corruption cure spells are going to be used for group content, you have to take into account all classes' corruption cures.

Oh, and I found another corruption resist based group effect. , from the various skeletons and the like in Hills of Shade. No counters on it, since it's a spinstun rather than a longer effect, but it's a place where corruption resists can actually help a little. (I used to ask for corruption resist buffs when pulling there, because getting stunned on my way back to camp was not useful.)

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

I knew you'd take the bait if I dangled it long enough.

I had heard the rumour that clerics group, but haven't seen it in a while. (just kidding).

On the other side of this, I strongly doubt that there is any reason applied to this. The scale is

rk 1 6 counters removed - so cures in 2 casts
rk 2 8 counters removed - see above
rk 3 10 counters removed - cures in one cast.

Clerics single target rk 1(ir I am not mistaken) - cures 27 counters.... Ok. that is gonna take out anything in the grouping game to our collective current knowledge..

I would love a dev to come and say YES - we meant that to happen. Honestly I would be quite impressed. I suspect though that the numbers were chosen randomly.

With that aside, lets deal with the assertion that because clerics can only cure 1 target, that a group cast shouldn't be able to cure the group in one shot. Why? Your logic of 'because clerics only have a single shot cure' doesn't make sense to me. Your assertion that a group spell should only cure half the amount of the only one that we know of is just applying your logic to random circumstance. Sounds like religion to me.

PS: Just a reassertion of a previous position of mine. I do appreciate arguing these types of things with you and always enjoy your input even when you are wrong and annoying.

[Unmei]

Uhm. I don't even grasp where are you coming from? Asking why a group cure shouldn't cure the whole group at one go is like asking why group buffs cost more mana than single buffs. There needs to be a reason and a place for single buffs.

Could it have been better designed to make the rank2 version more useful relative to the rank 2? Probably, but that wasn't what you were complaining about until a second ago.

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

[Unmei]

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

Ah. I see what you mean now. Yes, I had just realized that there was no difference between the rk 1 and 2 at that point. Good call. And that just points further to my belief that....

YOU HAZ GOTZ RELIGION UNMEI!

You are A: Trying to claim intelligent design in this and
B: analyzing it and trying to claim that this was intended to be below (by 1, 5, 192.. whatever) by intention.

Ok. Then my request to our correspondent/community rep/what eve rthe heck it is called now
is not
'OH HI's I IZ FANBOI. You meant to do that rights? rightS?? kk. I luv u.'

But to ask the question 'Can we have the group cast adjusted up one, or the only known corruption based detrimental effect in game adjusted down by 1 counter' so the group cure works in one cast.

I don't have religion Unmei. I think it was flat out an accident. If they wanted more time on the cast, why didn't they just make the casting longer? Why 2 casts? Fabrication to support intelligent design in my opinion.

If they intended this, ok. If the argument that you fabricated to justify this is true, ok. If it was just mere coincidence and a random number was picked, then could someone please ask them to adjust it.

As to your other comment regarding this, of course a group casts costs more mana. It's the penalty of casting it. If you wanted the penalty to be greater than the single cast, then double the mana cost. I TRULY do not believe they had intended this to be 2 casts.

Single cast of course has a place. Why a cleric doesn't have a group cure I do not know. Was actually kind of surprised when you said they didn't have one. But that is their issue to get a croup cure. I suspect they might have one under a different form.

Ps: You don't fail. I really didn't understand what you meant. It was an honest question that I could have asked as something like ' I do not understand what you mean' but I was in the middle of a FOS progression for a friend when I read that, and just did the short version of 'eh?'. ' No intended disrespect on my part just laziness.

PSS: I really don't care that much, as I am done with those crystallines once I got all my boys their T4 (raspers system) chest piece. I won't be back to them. Too much trouble. I just don't agree that it should be like it is. It isn't balanced, and that is where we disagree. If the rk 1 DIDN'T cure in one cast, and the Rk 2 DID, then that would be balanced. A group shamn/dru with the best available to him while playing in the grouping (non raid) game should be able to do it in one cast. That is my belief. That looks like progression.

[Unmei]

Honestly, I don't see -why- it needs to be adjusted. It just kinda sounds like you're annoyed and want it changed. And sadly, just because something is annoying isn't basis for change.

The current setting has what I personally view as about the right balance, whether it was by design or by mistake. If I had designed it, this is pretty darn close to how -I- would have done it. (As mentioned, I probably would've gone with 13 counters, if I'd had enough design time to give it this much thought) Group cures should take more casts to cure effects than single cures. That's why the group cure cures for less. I don't know how to put it any clearer.

Oh, and no, I -did- fail, because I said "type2" both times. stupid fingers.

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

And for my part, I cannot understand why you believe this.

A group cure should - cure the group. It should cost more mana than the single cure. It should have a longer casting time than the single cure. The single cure should be high enough that it can pick off a couple of detrimentals with one cast (as is the case). The weaker 'free' version (rk 1, available from vendors) would make sense to require a couple casts to get ONE EFFECT off, but, and I repeat myself,

the highest available version to a shaman/druid (rk2) of the cure corruption group cure (or for any class) should be able to pick off one detrimental effect from the ones cast by groupable mobs.

As it currently stands, if you are a raiding shaman/druid you will be able to do so in the grouping game. I do not agree with you that this represents balance. It should be the rk 2.

I think at worst here we shall have to agree to disagree. I understand your argument, I just don't agree with it.

If you do not understand mine, then I shall be happy to repeat it. yet again.

Peace

[Unmei]

You may have noticed that your group cure does NOT in fact have a longer cast time than the cleric cure (Though it does have a longer recast, giving it a longer total 'cycle time'), nor does it cost more mana. So let's not pretend that this spell is saddled with some sort of serious disadvantage in that area.

How many group poison/disease effects could be cured by Blood of Nadox vs Abolish Poison or Abolish Disease. This is how the game works. Group cures require more casts. But less time if you are curing more than one person. Observe:

One person corrupted: Cleric can cure in 4.5 seconds of cast/recast. Druid/Shaman takes 12 (two casts at 3+3).
Two people corrupted: Cleric can cure in 9 seconds of cast/recast. Druid/Shaman takes 12.
Three people corrupted: Cleric can cure in 13.5 seconds. Druid/Shaman takes 12.

Group heals heal less than single target heals. Group cures cure less than single target cures. You should not expect them to cure things in one cast.

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

[Kianor]

This has got to be one of the most pointless arguments out there!

Bigcat, I still fail to see any real reason why one cast of this spell should be enough to cure a group at rank 2. It seems that your only reasoning for this is because you think it should. I fail to see why 2 casts is a problem at group level, when a cleric would have to cast up to 6 times to cure the same group. I don't see that as unbalanced or unreasonable. Yes, it might be annoying if you're in that group and have to cure, but it would be annoying for the cleric too.

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

Thanks whoever fixed up that mess of a post I made. Quoting seems to be a skill that has escaped me.

Thanks Kianor and welcome back to EQ.
You and Unmei disregarding the reasons that I have listed OVER AND OVER by saying 'You haz no reezuns, so u iz rong' doesn't change my argument. Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't invalidate it. Just beacuse Unmei says it, doesn't make it right.
But jumping on the band wagon should help to stimulate Unmei into new levels of repeating her/his argument ad infinitum, selectively ignoring the reasons that I have listed ad infinitum and carrying on pretending that this weak argument of how things 'used to be' WHICH THEY NEVER WERE BECAUSE WE HAD THE GROUP AND SINGLE CAST THEN, you two can start your own fan club, and invite any other fanbois that want to join.

Are you and Unmei sekritly my wife? This argument seems like most that I've had with her! Pointless, as everything I say is ignored, and we go back as far in time as we need to trying to pretend 'that is the way it always was'

I am done with this discussion. I have said all I have to say.

Edit: One thought I missed. If I remember correctly, our group poison/disease cure did cure a lot of the poisons and diseases normally cast in a group setting?' I don't have the time or desire any more to research this, but if anyone wants to pick up this torch, that would be an interesting rebuttal. Not that it would matter, the argument will somehow magically rearrange to some other reasoning of why it should be this way... You gotta give Unmei credit. Once dug in, takes a nuklear warheadz get her/him out.

Edit 2: Crap. Keep thinking of new stuff. The single cast that the poor clerics are saddled with is high enough that it can remove MULTIPLE detrimentals from a single target. Inverting your argument, that is it's purpose and oh hell. Let's go all the way with that. THAT'S THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN AND ALWAYS MEANT TO BE. So therefore I conclude that the group should be able to remove a SINGLE detrimental of that school. Btw, the corruptoin effect we are discussing is NOT AE'D like it would be in a RAID setting which is the apple you are comparing to my orange.


Peace out.

[Kianor]

Well, I can't really see why either of you are getting so worked up about it. I don't see it matters that much one way or another. I don't know if it's deliberate or an accident, but I can't see it being a big deal either way. That's where I was coming from, really.

[Tanom]

I don't see the need of raising the counters, the argument for it is not valid. Leave it as it is, it is fine and not difficult to cast it twice as it is a really fast cast/recast spell. If anything, I would say it's too powerful but at the same time as a druid I find it like that. If you really want to keep pressing for it, they will eventually just do it and then we will more likely than not have to deal with another stupidly bugged spell before the new expansion.

[Unmei]

[Bigcat Daddy-o]