STING NERF???

[Tarnnok]

[Samanna]

[Jabobtha]

[Jaraman]

Hey, wait, I got a new complaint: Whining for nuke crit AA refunds! Cheese 'n' rice, forever in debt to your priceless advice...

Way before Sting was even a twinkle in some Dev's eye, I concentrated more on the nuke AAs when I was still doing a lot of Creators. My reasoning was that in groups I wanted to get as much damage bang for the AA buck. The pre-TSS nuke AA's seemed a more visual and feel-good way of getting that, since I usually melee'd with panther on and rained once or even twice a battle:

panther: 400 ==> 800 ==> 900 ==> 960 (25% chance)

Chaotic Strike: 175 ==> 350 ==> 393 ==> 420 (25% chance)
Time Lapse: 750 ==> 1500 ==> 1687 ==> 1800 (25% chance)

rain crits:
650 ==> 1300 ==> 1462 ==> 1560 (25% chance)
893 ==> 1786 ==> 2009 ==> 2143 (25% chance)

All those crits in a typical battle add up quick. Already having the basic DOT crit AAs from GoD (CA2), I didn't feel it was worth it spending a LOT more AAs to get a measley few more percentage points (just so you can have a *slightly* better chance to get that same DOT critical....) That slight DOT crit chance didn't weigh in as heavily as the immediate nuke satisfaction of more and bigger panther, weapon, and rain crits.

Or at the very least, it sure felt better and was more fun seeing my crits spammed everywhere for everyone to see. And funny how the pickup group druid inevitably caught on and started using his *better* rains for a bit, that is, until he ran out of mana and couldn't sustain it anymore

Anyways, if you've already bought the nuke crit AAs, why not put them to use? Even though it's been lurking in the shadows since Sting came on the scene, Yoppa's Rain of Venom can still give some nice burst damage instead of that second DOT... It takes about 4-5 running tics of that second DOT to reach the damage of a typical rain burst with a crit. And our rains' efficiency is 1:5 or better. And half the cost of Sting. Food for thought. Sting might not be as yummy anymore, but it's still an important part of the DPS diet. And quick-casting for gaters, runners, healers, and snap aggro goodness to boot.

Besides, I'm not about to let a little more mana cost rob me of 250+ DPS. If I have to, I'll drop Malis or use Malos or the Idol to save on mana. I'll even go into the burn modes other casters use, and sit out a battle or two so the group can feel how much DPS is lost when I'm not involved. Sting's nerf is mentioned on the TBS threads in the cleric, druid, and mage boards. If we give in and stop using Sting, in effect those other classes have *won* the small nerf battle of class envy.

[Tracor]

Honestly I was sitting on the fence to even purchase this expansion. I see nothing of great value in it and I am tired of paying for an expansion to only get 1 or 2 things of "slight" value, like I feel was the case with LoY.

I have always hated retro-nerfs. I feel they should build up others if there is an issue instead of taking something away. The spell has been in the game long enough that it should not be touched imo. This is directly due to class envy complaints whether admitted or not.

It pretty much helped me get off the fence though, I will not be purchasing this expansion at this time. There is enough worth while content that I want to do currently that should hold me over till the next expansion. After all, it's only 6 months away...

Tracor

[Hecude Poison`Blood]

Our spells are pretty good now actually so im getting it now, it they never got revised i would be with you on saying it had nutton.

[KB]

Mutton?

[Hecude Poison`Blood]

nutton = nothing, sry im a redneck

[KB]

I'm from West TN, nuttin, or nuthin. You got the whole nuevo riche redneck thing going on. Now where else are you gonna see nuevo rich and redneck in the same sentence?

[Samanna]

I'm getting nuttin' for Christmas
'Cause I ain't been nuttin' but bad.

[Kianor]

While it's a nerf, and a pain to change it this late in the day, the change to Sting just brings it in line with our other poison nukes in terms of mana cost.

Ahnkaul's Spear of Venom Rk.II: 1556 hp for 524 mana (2.97 hp/mana)
Yoppa's Spear of Venom: 1197 hp for 425 mana (2.82 hp/mana)

Old Sting of the Queen Rk.II: 3004 hp for 604 mana (4.97 hp/mana)
Nerfed Sting of the Queen Rk.II: 3004 hp for 1000 mana (?) (3.00 hp/mana)

Our Poison nukes have always been less efficient than our cold nukes. We've used them because the shorter cast time makes it more useful for us. Sting of the Queen was not only a shorter cast time than other poison nukes, but was more efficient in mana terms than our cold nukes and approaching the efficiency of our DoTs. Sting did nearly double the damage of Ahnkaul's, at only slightly more mana cost.

Other classes got nice spells in TSS that added a slightly different dimension to the spells they could already cast, but they paid a penalty for that. For example: Paladins and druids got a nice short cast time heal, but they have a longer recast and higher mana cost.

Sting of the Queen is a nice, fast cast nuke with a recast. If it had had a mana cost of 1000 when it had originally come out, we would have still liked it because it is something slightly different, and gives a chance to do a little DPS between all our other duties.

It's only because the mana cost was originally low and then put up that people are complaining. The mana cost now isn't a penalty for the faster cast, like the druid and paladin heals have - it's just in line with our other poison nukes.

I don't like retro nerfs, and I would have loved it if Sting had stayed at it's low mana cost, but I don't think this one is something we really should complain too hard about.

[Brohg]

Kianor, Sting isn't a spear nuke. It appears next to those nukes, in the place normally occupied by rain spells. G'head calculate efficiency on rain spells. You know, that other form of poison dd shm have. While you're at it, chart up % improvement in damage from era to era on these lines of damage spells. Do poison spears, do ice nukes, and do poison rains. See if you can figure out which sequence Sting of the Queen belongs at the (current) end of. It's a nerf, plain & simple, in response to some outside force. Nothing innate about the spell was broken. Whether or not the move was correct is simply a point of view that can be chosen or not chosen.

[Kianor]

Sting isn't a spear nuke, I agree. But it sure as anything isn't a rain either. It's in a class of its own.

But so is the paladin spell Burst of Sunlight, and the druid spell Adrenaline Surge - and both of those are LESS efficient than their other heals.

Why would we get a spell that is faster, more damage AND more efficient? It doesn't really make much sense.

I am just saying that though I don't like the nerf, I kinda understand it and I think that if Sting had been introduced at 1000 mana in the first place, no one would have said "nice spell but too expensive" - they would have just said "nice spell".

[Veril]

[Kianor]

[Gwaeron]

[Cronikk]

[Fudapuda]

[Kianor]

[Tharkis]

[Jaraman]

That's exactly the point, Kianor. No matter how many contrary facts you bring up to point out that the change to Sting was an unpleasant but fair one, those driven by emotion demanding some type of "right" to their own self-gratification selfish agenda will nevermind whine loudly trying to get their way.

It's stupid that we now have two poison nukes with the same efficiency. But the Spear was continued stupidity of a weak nuke line; Sting is less stupid because it actually does twice the traditional nuke damage. And with a crit that's more upfront damage than a whole shaman DOT versus the other way around. Shammy crits are now beyond clerics, chanters, rangers, BSTs, and SKs and into the company of druid, mage, and wizzy nukes. That alone is a boon.

But the real bonus is its super short cast time. That is something very new and significant to shamans. Only a very few classes have spell cast times of .5s or lower. It meshes great with the shaman playstyle of constantly casting something -- canni, dot, buff, debuff, rebuff, heal, and now nuke. Fast-cast lets us actually do something effective against gaters and healers. You can Sting while getting beat on. With no snarer around, it lets you nuke mobs down into low-health snare-mode, so as not to even need snare. And fast-cast = snap aggro when you need or want it, especially when coupled with the largest burst damage shaman can do with any single spell.



Brohg hanging onto the argument that Sting is some class of rain spell is one of the weakest ones he's made in a long time. Back in TSS beta, I'd like to believe that it was the heated arguments against the original, sucky, rain-replacing, Sting that got us the improved version we enjoyed for 5 months. But you know what, even if Sting kept the efficiency and had a long cast with a 12s recast like all our rains, but instead was a 3k nuke instead of the 3 waves like a rain, that Sting would still be better. 3 waves of 1168 or one nuke of 3004; TSS critted rain for 5-6k or critted Sting for 8-11k...

The original beta Sting sucked hard. The fixed Sting was amazing... big damage, very efficient/relatively low mana cost, super fast cast, decent recast... it introduced a viable time- and mana-effective 250ish DPS burst to a busy class with superior mana regen. Four "anti-nerfs" that together added new dimensions to the class. Then, wonder of wonders, we also got group panther, which is a whole 'nuther story to itself.

Three out of four ain't bad, and without a doubt the upcoming singly- nerfed Sting will be less glamorous, but boy, the Queens sure are bitching hard. I'm not buying t.B.S. either.

[Gwaeron]

[Fudapuda]

[Unmei]

[zkan usa]

[Jaraman]

Completely nullify? The difference between the nerfed Sting and the old Sting is about 300 mana.

Ancestral Bargain rk1 returns 562m.

Tighten up your canni's, skip a Malis once in awhile, or use a HOT instead of a direct heal, and you can largely mitigate the mana differential:

Your nerf was partially successful.

Claiming that Sting will be useless and relegating it "to the back of the spell book to collect dust" is just melodramatic posturing. Lumping the Sting nerf with "no one understands us shamans because look at our sucky spells" is both misdirection and misrepresentation. B.S.

I don't know, I might be wrong. After the nerf, let's see if "low end" shammies are in actuality forced to cast Sting half as often. I'm guessing after factoring delays between pulls, it will be more like 3 casts compared to when you used to cast it 4 times, if that. Because I doubt "low end" shaman are currently chaining Sting every time it pops now, because that is too mana intensive. I doubt most high-end shamans chain Sting, that only a few hardcore shammies chain-cast it (and will continue to do so despite the nerf).

I bet many shamans -- who try! -- will still be able to use Sting as they did pre-nerf.

Unless of course you're really a shambot who doesn't work his canni like he ought to.

[zkan usa]

[Jaraman]

[Hecude Poison`Blood]

[Jaraman]

[Gwaeron]

[Jaraman]

[Jaraman]

[Tracor]

[Gwaeron]

[Tugela]

[Kianor]

[Veril]

[zkan usa]

[Fudapuda]