Demi-plane Shaman only item - Update from Zajeer 11-4

[Brohg]

You're my hero now, Sam.

That is indeed one problem with "merit" systems.

Merit systems, that typically call themselves "need before greed" are a TERRRRIBLE way to assign loot, as they very actively reward people for not pursuing independent advancement. If one guy is wearing a three year old Solstice ear, and you're wearing Icedrop Pearl, he clearly needs Earring of Influxed Gravity more, but that's only because he's a bad player, and is holding back the guild because he puts no effort into his character. I use the Earring as a specific example because it came up one night in #serverwide.crucible:crucible when Binter's family guild got their first Quarm kill. Ask him about how his beneficent leadership decided where that loot went.

Consider, when you speak of officers deciding "based on attendance, size of the upgrade, and recent upgrades", that points systems do the same thing, merely taking out the officer. People who have higher attendance get more points. People who have bought a lot of upgrades recently have less points. People who buy upgrades that aren't good for them have less points in the long run (otherwise said: people in control of their own loot are highly motivated to take the good stuff). A points system covers all the issues that officers supposedly decide on, without the factor that an officer could (potentially. maybe not yours, but every single other one I've ever seen) decide to ignore all those factors and put the loot somewhere it doesn't belong.

A side issue is that merit systems typically take much longer to decide loot, cutting down on how much a raid can get done in a night. With points systems, you take tells, and hand item to the person who has the higher number. Typically whole mob done in under a minute.

[XeroOmega]

there are factors to consider in any loot system, I personally have seen far too much "loot hoarding" in DKP systems. and spiteful bidding.

one thing I see alot of people get hung up on about "merit systems" is that they think "need before greed" factor is primary deciding feature of loot, its not true...most of the time its attendance and general effort put into the guild. size of upgrade is usually the "tie breaker"

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but its not really ever an issue that someone doesn't try to improve their character, if you're not working towards a goal, you're not showing up for raids, you're not helping people in the guild progress....and amiabilty with officers doesn't decide loot either....sure, people try to be "tooheys" but it doesn't really work for them, they guild hop to a DKP guild when they can...

not too much of a fan of Ayn Rand....comment brought back some memories though.

[Giac]

Brohg is dead on. The merit based loot system operates on the same criteria as DP based ones, except that you open up yourself to bias.

[XeroOmega]

bias is present in any system, even DKP

[Brohg]

No one's hands are tied by any system that isn't enforced with game mechanics. If a member is abusing the rules, it's entirely within the power of responsible leadership to apply sanctions to rein in people that aren't behaving appropriately. There are also plenty of ways to discourage antisocial bidding systematically, preventing future need to go outside the points. The best teacher I ever had (highschool, senior year civics/government) taught me "the rules of the game determine how it's played". As far as I've been able to observe, that's held true in every endeavor in Everquest and Real Life. Anecdotally, the most advanced "merit" guilds I've seen (every one I've heard of PoTime+) ended up with some very well geared officer married to the leader. It's happened in three unrelated instances. Somehow, the rules of their game ended up with that conclusion, so you tell me...

[Cascet Wurmhardt]

[Giac]

[Cascet Wurmhardt]

[Scowls]

[furikuri]

[Samanna]

[Valsuvious]

[Tekno]

[XeroOmega]

[Scowls]

[Brohg]

[Scowls]

[Samanna]

[Kianor]

I've been in two high end guilds that award by merit. Both take into account factors such as attendance, loot already awarded, recent loot, upgrade value, suitability.

One guild I was in scored loot in a similar way to a DKP system, only the decisions were based on "merit" - by a loot council consisting of 3 officers and 3 members (rotating each month).

Merit only works if you trust the officers - I guess some people could stay in a guild where the officers were crooked and awarded themselves the best loot first, but most people wouldn't. A guild like that would probably not last that long. In my experience of these two merit systems, the officers were very wary about awarding themselves highly contested items, and if anything, would avoid doing so unless they could back up the decision with very firm reasons.

Under both these merit systems, people can ask for and receive items that would benefit another class more, but it's less likely than with DKP. But then, you can't really look too much at things like shielding - at this stage, it's often the non-tanks that benefit more from it, because the tanks have capped it.

I have never been in a guild with a strict DKP system, so I couldn't compare the two from first hand experience. But I would say that merit can and does work in high end raiding situations. Both systems have pros and cons.

[Scowls]

[Samanna]

[Veril]

[Scowls]

[Tobyus]

Ummm...take a look at the effect on the Piercing Ring on Test

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?i ... ource=Test

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83594

/drools

It looks like they also swapped the name on other Malady/Bile focus effects so they match the appropriate poison or disease that the name indicates rather than being reversed. So it looks like several items may be effected by this.

[Scowls]

id save my dkp for that! too bad they added limit PBae, theres no limit on that on other focus effects for poison, i get 3k+ crits with rikki eye. but i guess we wouldnt want to make flower farmers tooo powerful, it would throw the game off balance

[XeroOmega]

[Valsuvious]

[Kneesmasher]

As the guild leader of a Merit-based guild, I've seen this Merit vs DKP debate 1,000 times over the years. Both have their strengths, both have their weakness. Both have goods and both have evils.

As with any system, if it's not managed properly, it fails. Whether that's DKP or Merit, doesn't matter. Arguing that one is better than the other is like trying to prove that apples are better than oranges.

When it comes to a Merit system, there are Officers out there that have proven themselves to be dishonest. They've lied and stolen from the guild and caused people to want and need a DKP-type system. Those people who can no longer trust because of some "wrong" done them in the past, need to be in a DKP system. They are happier that way.

Then there are those guild members out there that just won't trust an Officer no matter what, even if he's done nothing to make them distrust him. The Officer could have made 1,000 loot calls perfectly but as soon as one goes awry, they are screaming foul and claiming bias. Members who always feel like there is a conspiracy going on, loot isn't fair, they're being screwed, blah blah blah, and no matter of discussion, or proof of loot awards, is going to change their mind. They are just that type of person and will always think and believe that something shady is going on behind the scenes, even when it's not. These type of people need to be in a DKP system.

Then there are those that just like the order and the stats of a DKP system. It makes them feel warm and fuzzy and comfortable to go out and look at their points compared to others and see those points go up with every raid. GREAT! They need to be in a DKP system and DKP allows them to "Shop" for items basically (assuming they drop) and they like that.

However, when an Officer crew and Guild Leader have proven themselves over a long period of time to truly have the guild's best interest at heart and understand that if they truly do watch after the guild, then the guild will do well and watch after them, a Merit system works great. It is more flexible and fluid than a DKP system and it can fill in weaknesses in a guild to help shore up raiding and help the guild advance better than a DKP system.

But there is one consistent mistake guild members make that I have noticed over my years as an Officer and now Guild Leader in a Merit system guild. Number 1, hands down, is mistaking who asked for the loot. And who asks for it is the number 1 biggest and most important criteria that decides who gets it.

Members assume that a warrior asked for the loot drop, since it is a warrior-oriented item (for example, the 90/90/90 +3 shielding aug in Anguish) and turns out, no warriors asked for it. No Knights asked for it. So it goes to a wizard or a necro or a cleric or some other class that really shouldn't be getting hit unless it's a rotting item. People cry FOUL FOUL! Booooo....Hisssssss....the Officers suck, they are either stupid or playing favorites, blah blah blah. When in fact, the only 5 people who asked for the loot were 2 wizards, 1 necro, a mage and a druid. They don't know that...so they immediately assume either a screw up, or a conspiracy. Neither of which is correct. Once explained, the reasonable and rational people questioning the call are fine. They understand. All is well. Those who are constantly looking for the evil dishonest bad side are never apeased. Such is life.

For some people, a Merit system works great. For others, it doesn't. Some people like apples more, but I happen to like oranges.

[Brohg]

Apples make WAY better pie, and the associated juice is at least as good. If you factor in how yummy cider is when allowed to "turn", Oranges don't stand a chance. Have you ever even heard of orangesauce? Carmel Oranges? lol @ u, n00b, apples pwn.

[Tordail]

^^ Wisdom.

Apple pie > all.

[Moontrei]

[Beafly]

[Brohg]

[Kneesmasher]

One other quick factor about loot that I have learned over the years. Of all the problems you can have in a guild, loot issues are usually the easiest to resolve. Like most higher-end raiding guilds, Immortals Rising goes through several HUNDRED loot drops a month, or approximately 8-10 loot drops a day, every single day, 365 days a year, when averaged on a daily basis. Some nights we might get none, other nights we might get 15, but averaged, it's usually somewhere between 200-300 drops a month.

If a mistake is made on loot, it is just a short period of time before that "wrong" can be "righted". Simple problems with simple solutions and rarely anything to get your panties all in a wad about unless there is a standing trend of mishaps.

[Brohg]

Tru dat. Loot issues magnify a lot the more narrow your focus. If a guild only gets 5 loots a week, where it goes matters much more. One thing to observe along with volume, though, is how much of the loot *matters*. We did a full Anguish clear this week Keld to AMV, and on that night, no ring from Keldovan, no Ear from Ture, no cloak or belt or ear from Jelvan, no ring from Hanvar, so only the two AMV drops mattered. On our last Tacvi romp, we killed Xxeric & south on our way to Tunat. Out of those five mobs, the only contested drop was Tunat tongue. So on those two nights, only three loots out of thirtyfour really signified.

And yes, since I'm the opinionated bastard that I am, I think one of those loots went to the wrong person. Honestly, though, that's more a point on the side of the system, since the person who did end up with it has put in the raid time to get it. I would have subjectively denied her the loot she'd earned.

[siludorf]

Isn't Anguish BP best used by a shaman? or is there a class that deserves it more?

[Scowls]

[Maitz]

[Valsuvious]

[Swobu_AB]

6th Fang drop in a row rotted for us today, and one of the utterly useless bard instruments too.