Understanding hate

[Skalor]

[Brohg]

[Grokii]

[Skalor]

Thanks for the replies. Sorry Brohg, I must be blind, because I missed your post totally on the other thread.
I think I understand quite a bit more now. Each Mob has a hate list of PCs. It then perfoms a calculation on each to see who it should aggro, proximity and some other variables make up this calculation.
Besides FD/Fade what are the ways to move down the hate list and potentionally off. Is most of it time and proximity based, meaning after awhile and certain distance the mob will "forget" about you? I know zoning resets things also, is Succor and CoH included in this?

[Brohg]

[Kneesmasher]

[Unmei]

I still don't think there actually is a seperate "rampage list"; I bet it works like this:

Players 1,2,3,4,5 and 6 engage a mob, in that order, each by poking it with a sharp stick to get exactly 1 pt of hate. The hate list now looks like this:

1) Player1: 1 (Actually, probably more like 101, since there's a bonus for being the first person to engage a mob, but we'll ignore that.)
2) Player2: 1
3) Player3: 1
4) Player4: 1
5) Player5: 1
6) Player6: 1

If the mob has aggro on player1, player 2 has rampage, because he is next on the list.

Player1 then swings a melee weapon. The list now looks like:

1) Player1: 11
2) Player2: 1
3) Player3: 1
4) Player4: 1
5) Player5: 1
6) Player6: 1

Player 1 still has aggro, player2 still has rampage. Player 5 now casts a spell for 500 hate.

1) Player1: 11
2) Player2: 1
3) Player3: 1
4) Player4: 1
5) Player5: 501
6) Player6: 1


Player 5 now has aggro, Player 1 is on rampage.

Player1 taunts!

1) Player1: 502
2) Player2: 1
3) Player3: 1
4) Player4: 1
5) Player5: 501
6) Player6: 1

Player1 has aggro, player2 has rampage.

Player2 feigns death!

1) Player1: 502
(2) Player2: 1) (I show it like this because while Player2 is technically still on the hate list, he 'doesn't count' as long as he is feigned. If he stays down long enough to get a 'forget', then he goes off the list entirely)
3) Player3: 1
4) Player4: 1
5) Player5: 501
6) Player6: 1

Player1 has aggro, player3 has rampage.

It doesn't need two lists. It just uses the value for hate, and the position for rampage. Of course, this doesn't really mean anything practical either. ;P

[Ughbash]

[Kneesmasher]

In your scenario you show Rampage changing from player 2 to player 1 when player 5 casts his 500 hate spell. That's wrong. Rampage doesn't change when set properly. If it did, once the DA hammer proc'd Rampage would change. It doesn't. That's why Paladins are so effective as Rampage Tanks. They use a DA hammer.

FIRST ROUND SCENARIO
Player 1 : 2 pts of hate (attacks first) (Player 1 is now first on both the aggro list and the rampage list)
Player 2 : 1 pt of hate (attacks second) (Player 2 is now Rampage Tank since player 1 can't be both)
Player 3 : 1 pt of hate (attacks third)
Player 4 : 1 pt of hate (attacks fourth)
Player 5 : 1 pt of hate (attacks fifth)
Player 6 : 1 pt of hate (attacks sixth)

In the scenario above, if each attacked in order to generate 1 pt of hate and Player 1 gets a bonus for being first on the aggro list and now has 2 pts of aggro, Player 1 has aggro and is getting hit by the mob, since you cannot be main tank on the aggro list AND Rampage tank...Player 2 is first on the Rampage list and will take any Rampage attacks. Players 3-6 won't get hit at all.

SECOND ROUND SCENARIO
Player 1 : 2 pts of hate
Player 2 : 1 pt of hate
Player 3 : 1 pt of hate
Player 4 : 501 pts of hate (Casts a 500 pt hate spell...now has aggro)
Player 5 : 1 pt of hate
Player 6 : 1 pt of hate

In the scenario above, Player 4 (who cast the 500 pt hate spell) now has aggro. The mob has turned away from Player 1 and is now attacking Player 4. Player 2 is still Rampage. Player 1 is merely lower on the main aggro list now. He is not Rampage. He has more aggro than Player 2, but Player 2 was already established as the rampage tank. He's still number 1 for Rampage. That's why there's two lists. Rampage doesn't change based on who has the second most aggro. Aggro has nothing to do with Rampage.

Here's a realistic scenario:

Paladin hits DA and runs up to pull Keldovan the Harrier in Anguish. As soon as the Paladin gets aggro from Keldovan he is now Number 1 on the Aggro list and Number 1 on the Rampage list. Keldovan is attacking him with his regular attacks. No rampage attacks are landing on anyone since there is no one else established on either list. The main tank doesn't get regular attacks and rampage attacks both if he's the only one standing there in range. Paladin runs away from Keldovan, dragging him along behind, and runs to a Ranger waiting in the corner. Ranger shoots his bow and casts snare then hits Weapon Shield and is now Number 1 on the main aggro list. Keldovan quits attacking the Paladin and begins to attack the Ranger. Since Keldovan has a Rampage attack, it now begins to work. The Ranger is getting attacked directly. The Paladin is now firmly established as the Rampage Tank. At this point there are only two people on the list. Ranger is #1 main aggro list, Paladin is #1 Rampage list. Just before Weapon Shield wears off, the Warrior runs in and taunts and attacks and takes aggro from the Ranger. The main aggro list now looks like this, in order: Warrior, Ranger, Paladin. The Rampage tank, however is still the Paladin and will remain the Paladin until one of the things below happens...

Things that change Rampage:

1) The Rampage Tank goes out of range of the Rampage attack. If the player with rampage can get out of range of the rampage attack of the mob (most you can...some have zone wide rampage range) then they will lose rampage and the next on the list will get it.

2) The Rampage Tank dies. The next on the list gets Rampage.

That's really it. Nothing else changes Rampage except for a complete mem-blur or something along those lines which is a rarity. Some mobs have AE rampage where everyone in range gets it. A good example of the 3 main types of melee attacks is shown in the Tacvi trash mobs. Destroyer has regular rampage. Rampage won't change unless one of the two things I mention above happens. Berzerker has AE Rampage. He will hit everyone in melee range because his Rampage is tied to his attack box. Crusher is a Flurry mob with no Rampage of any kind.

Like I said in my first post, it gets a bit complicated in complex scenarios, but I DA rampage tank all the time with my Paladin. Unless there's something funky with the mob, that's how rampage works...at least traditionally.

[Unmei]

[Dobbs]

[Brohg]

Feign drops you entirely off of rampage. Standing won't get it back. It's not like going out of range. It's pretty hard to get good monks to tank rampage, because Fiegning when they get hit is so automatic.

[Grokii]

[Kneesmasher]

[Grokii]

Correct... aggro depends on hate. Rampage is exclusivly chronological addition to the hate list. Having RT pull is one good way to set it. Having MT pull and the RT shoot an arrow works as well.

Having a NPC do the FD proc will only reset Hate, it doesn't remove someone from the hate list. Example of this is a monk pulling a NPC, then FD half way to camp. If he is out of aggro radius and stands back up, the NPC will still aggro him because he is still on the hate list. If a FDer stays down long enough, they get the 'your enemies have forgotten you' mesasge. This means they are off the aggro list. Every time you FD you have a slight chance of that happening by default, or if the mob goes back to its spawn point (this can be tricky with wanderers because they may wander for 10 minutes before pathing over their spawn point again).

Anyway, thats all I got. : P

[Unmei]

[Andurel]

[Kumeldar]

[Kneesmasher]

Nope, that's not right. Rampage doesn't change once set unless the Rampage Tank dies, goes out of range or becomes the MT. The MT who pulled with an arrow would NOT become rampage tank if he loses aggro to the second MT who uses AE Taunt. He won't. Once again, that scenario would make the DA RT Paladin lose Rampage. That's not what happens. When the MT is tanking a mob he pulled and I'm Rampage Tank and a rogue steals aggro due to his DPS, the MT doesn't become Rampage. When a wizard gets summoned because he over nuked, the MT doesn't instantly become Rampage until the wizard either dies or gets out of aggro range. That's not how it works. If it did, every time the MT lost aggro, my DA hammer would become useless. It is far far from useless.

I DA Rampage Tank with my Paladin all the time. Almost every night we raid. Once I am established as Rampage Tank...if we do it right...I am Rampage Tank. Lots of mobs these days cause the MT to lose aggro. Zi-Thuuli is just one example. The MT probably changed 10 times while I rampage tanked him...maybe more. It changes alot when tanking Zi-T. I was rampage the entire time.

It works like this for mobs that have Rampage:

Scenario

MT pulls with Arrow - 1st on Hate List
Paladin tags with a stun - 2nd on Hate List
Paladin is now on Rampage until he dies, goes out of range or becomes first on the Hate List
Wizard over nukes and becomes 1st on the Hate List
Paladin is still on Rampage until he dies, goes out of range or becomes first on the Hate List
MT AE Taunts and gets aggro back
Paladin is still on Rampage until he dies, goes out of range or becomes first on the Hate List
MT gets a feign death from the mob and Rogue is now first on the Hate List
Paladin is still on Rampage until he dies, goes out of range or becomes first on the Hate List
MT stands up and takes aggro back
Paladin is still on Rampage until he dies, goes out of range or becomes first on the Hate List
Paladin's DA hammer procs dropping him to the bottom of the Hate List
Paladin is still on Rampage until he dies, goes out of range or becomes first on the Hate List
(Yes, the mob will continue to rampage me even with my DA up...)
MT dies and a Monk now has aggro
Paladin is still on Rampage until he dies, goes out of range or becomes first on the Hate List
Monk Feigns Death and drops aggro
Paladin becomes FIRST on the Hate List
Paladin loses Rampage because you can't be first on the Hate List and Rampage Tank at the same time
Rampage changes to whoever is next on the List (probably a Healer)
The Paladin's DA Hammer procs again dropping him to the bottom of the Hate List
Paladin returns to Rampage Tank until he dies, goes out of range or becomes first on the Hate List again
Mob begins to attack Healer who is now First on the Hate List
Paladin is still on Rampage until he dies, goes out of range or becomes first on the Hate List
Paladins DA wears off and he is once again First on the Hate List when it drops
Paladin is no longer Rampage because he's First on the Hate List
Rampage now appears to be bouncing all over the place, but it's not. It's simply working down the list
A Warrior charges in and takes aggro and is now First on the Hate List
Paladin returns to Rampage until he dies, goes out of range or becomes first on the Hate List
Warrior dies and Healer is now First on the Hate List due to big Spam Heals
Paladin is still on Rampage until he dies, goes out of range or becomes first on the Hate List
Healers dies and Paladin is now First on the Hate List again
Paladin loses Rampage because he's first on the Aggro List
Rampage goes to whoever is next in line on the list
Mob hits Paladin with a big Knockback and flings him across the room out of Melee Range
Paladin is now out of Melee Range and out of Rampage Range
Whoever is first on the Hate List and in range is now getting attacked directly
Whoever is second on the Hate List and in range is now getting Rampaged
The last Warrior charges in, hits AE Taunt and becomes first on the Hate List
Rampage goes to whoever is next in line on the list
Paladin runs back into Range
Paladin is now Rampage until he dies, goes out of range or becomes first on the Hate List
Paladin dies as Rampage Tank
Rampage goes to next on the list who happens to be a Wizard
Wizard dies on first round of Rampage
Rampage goes to next on the list
That player dies
Rampage goes to next on the list

That's how it works. Rampage doesn't change once set properly unless the RT dies, goes out of range or becomes first on the Hate List. Now, there are a few mobs out there that do some funky things. Some clear their hate list completely. That can screw things up. But aside from those few mobs (although becoming more common) Rampage doesn't change once set unless the RT dies...etc. etc.

[Brohg]

[Tugela]

[Tugela]

[Tugela]

[Tugela]

[Tugela]

[Tugela]

[Tugela]

[Brohg]

[Unmei]

[Grokii]

[Tugela]

[Tugela]

[Grokii]

[Tugela]

[Brohg]

Necros don't pause even close to that long. They're down for under a tick, under a *second*. That's why Death Peace AA was revolutionary, because now they don't even have to spend a single moment of time that they could be using to cast more damage. Monks as well don't FD & stay there. They FD and bounce right back up to keep fighting. The whole idea is that the technique allows them to outdamage the tank. If they have good dps, but spend enough time down so that the warrior is always outdamaging them, what's the point? They'd be better off playing SHAMAN then. Total damage dealt is our limitation, not theirs. Clearly it's not theirs, or they couldn't produce the effect they do.

[Tugela]

[Grokii]

[Ughbash]

[Tugela]

[Grokii]