lets get paladins ae aggro

[dindaur]

[Nightops]

Quote 1:

Pulling beetles or the farm in dragonscale - I can solo the entire pull at once, big whoop many people can. Now if I invite a lower level friend to join me for exp I have to pull less than half of what I can solo to be able to safely keep agro on me via self heals no matter what my friend is doing.

How is this right? By adding people you fight less efficiently?

Quote 2:

I'm not talking about inviting a lower level healer or enchanter. I'm talking about a meleer. He can assist me and pull agro on other mobs that neither of us have targeted because healing yourself is NOT AE AGRO. If you don't believe me, try it. His lower level agro surpasses my healing self agro even when I pull 10 or so bugs and spend enough time healing myself that I kill the first one, he will still pull agro just by assisting. It will take a few moments but it happens rather consistantly.
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Sorry Zyba, but this is a bad example because the game simply doesnt work that way unless the trash mem-blurs or like someone mentioned, it has extremely close proximity agro.

With all that being said, the mobs in the farm in DS Hills -do have- close proximity agro. Your friend isnt stealing agro from you at all. I'd bet that if you pull 10 mobs, or even 5, these mobs (and most SOF mobs) creat a large push on you and back you away, which causes a large space between your friend, the mobs pulled, and yourself. If your friend assists correctly and keeps you between him and the rest of the mobs (attacks from behind you) he will not get agro at all (provided he isn't proc'ing hate and you continue to dps when not healing).
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Burst heals create good agro. Better then stuns.. doubt it, but maybe its in a range of agro from 2 or 3 bursts = 1 stun. Want a way to test it? Take 2 paladins to the Festival camp in Loping plains. Have one paladin take off his weapon and stun pull a solo undead on the west(?) side of the camp. The pulling paladin does nothing but stand there and let the mob beat him down to 50%. Have the second paladin stand within melee range and only cast burst heals, repeat this until the mob changes targets.

There are too many variables to provide a ratio applicable to all paladins, but coming up with an estimate would be doable imo.

If anyone tries this, from my experience, I'm guessing a large factor with this will be making sure your within melee distance, preferrably next to the pulling paladin. If your willing to spend a lot of time on this, try starting fresh and healing from a greater distance to see if the agro from the bursts weakens when you get farther away from the pulling paladin.


If your looking to see about the AE agro aspect... go to CoD and have one guy pull 3-4 undead with 1 stun on each. Drop weapons to avoid riposte and let one paladin get beat down to 50%. Have the other standing -within melee range- and burst heal. Repeat until all mobs have switched targets.

Will all the mobs switch at once? I doubt it, but after each heal, I would test the proximity issue by running back and forth a bit to see if mobs switched targets. If they still have more agro from the stun, they will stay with the puller, more agro from the heals, they should switch to the healer. From what I remember, the old world mobs don't have the proximity agro issues like today and they don't create the large push.

[StPauli]

I am sorry if i misunderstood the intentions of this thread. I did read the first post and the next few, i read a few here and there i skimmed some of it so no I have not read every minute detail of this thread twice over. I do not remember reading in Dinds first post that this thread was directed solely at group situation, and since i know he was testing burst and such on raids recently, i took it to mean he was referring more towards a ae aggro tool for raid situations. Recently we have been short on sk's on raids actually, and my paladin crew has been trying to till in the gaps best we can but there are some encounters where ae aggro would make things a lot easier, or even is a must, and when we only have 1 or 2 sk's and they end up getting dead somehow and all your warriors are engaged with other mobs, our paladins have to do the best we can to take over and w/o a reliable form of ae aggro that is nearly impossible.

As far as a grouping situation.. yah i don't think we need anything, i have never had an issue arise while in an xp group that group heals were not enough to get the mobs off my group members and on to me. I do think that group heals are a bit expensive to have to use for getting ae aggro compared to how inexpensive stuns are for holding aggro but I really don't think i would keep an ae aggro generator loaded in 1 group content anyway. On raids, however, i think it would be an invaluable tool that as a tank and a knight I think we should have some way of doing it that is more reliable then just casting massively expensive heals in hopes of generating enough heal aggro to turn the attention of a few mobs when they may not even get picked up by it.

I can understand your point about wanting to keep some seperation between the classes. I do not want to take the sk's only role away from them but I dont really see our roles on raids being that different. sk's have a lot of tricks that paladins dont have and the same is true the other way around but our main function is to tank and crowd control. Warriors can have the named mobs on raids but when your getting swarmed with adds and your warriors are all busy, sk's are able to ae aggro but paladins just have to stand there and hope they have enough mana to cast ridiculously expensive heals in a weak attempt to get heal aggro so they are not watching casters drop off because they cant toggle targets and stun fast enough.

Is it a huge deal? no probably not, we have managed to last this long without it. I just don't know that i agree that while warriors are busy playing with the named mobs that the sk's should be the only ones in the raid who are capable of taking hits and generating reliable ae aggro. In my experience as playing a paladin on raids pallies have always been more of a crowd control type where as sk's were a bit better at tanking if no warriors were alive and also do more dps. I never understood why we didn't get some form of ae stun since it was a cleric line, but i assumed it was because they didn't have a opposing way of giving sk's an ae hate spell to match it, and didn't want to unbalance the 2 classes, so we both got the shaft. Then they went and gave the sk's the ae hate line but didn't give us the ae stun line, it just didn't and still doesn't make any sense to me. Every paladin i have ever talked to in game has always concurred that we should have some form of ae taunt. I think reading this post here is the first that i have heard that some paladins don't think we should get an ae taunt so i guess i don't know how to respond to that.

I tried to be a lil nicer on the eyes this time with the paragraph size, hope these paragraphs don't come out too long, the last one didn't look so bad till i posted it.

[Nightops]

[Ughbash]

[Zyba]

[dindaur]

[Zyba]

[Ughbash]

[Kilgaroz]

[Luthair]

[Aetemius]

[Nightops]

[dindaur]

[Kneesmasher]

I can't read this thread at all from work because of the bad word filter. I've been wondering what I was missing. Turns out...not much.

I will say one thing: Paladins don't have AE Aggro. Sorry Bruennor, but your "we have AE aggro through our heals" is just a bunch of B.S.

Other than that, not much to add here.

[StPauli]

[dindaur]

i believe all tanks should be able to participate in aggro based content.
i believe our tools are unbalanced in power, cost, and power vs. cost because they are manipulated beyond their intended use
i believe the difference between participating and dominating is key when bringing up the very best AE classes. I believe just as the clerics remain unchallenged as the kings of heals so should the AE kings.
our goal is to participate without dominating.

thats the last post ill make on here til i get some hard data from in game, stuns versus heals, that sort of thing.

[Dray]

Groups without any form of CC are commonplace and groups that use multi tanking are almost the norm these days. Two of the three tank classes have tools that make CCless or multi tanking groups much easier and enjoyable than the experience paladins deal with. We should have access to reliable AE hate that doesn't depend on us taking damage in the first place. We really do need a way to generate hate around us that doesn't have as many conditions as we do now or as many penalties such as huge mana costs, long spell refreshes, and completely wasted spell opportunities due to inexperienced healers hitting a heal before we can. Our heals can be used in some situations for AE hate and in some situations its very effective, in others its ineffective and inefficient.

It doesn't have to be "AE Hate" ala Shadow knight version, but really Paladins need a more reliable and mana effective way of keeping multiple mobs on them rather than the rest of the group/raid.

Two ideas I have tossed around:

1. One of our stun lines is based on saltwater. What about adding "splash" damage around the stun target that adds a small radius of hate around it. This would be like an targeted AE which would be very different from the SK's PBAE Hate. This could be a AA skill...or a new spell line.

2. Holywater spray perhaps a viral effect that spreads to mobs around us like a fog causing some hate to be generated to mobs in close proximity.

[Ughbash]

[Dray]

[Khael]

[dindaur]

[Bruennor]

[dindaur]

[Bruennor]

[dindaur]

[dindaur]

[wirt_oakhand]

How are you going to heal a DA Clr with a bunch of mobs mobs hitting on him and you dont have a scratch on you so your heal doesn't do shit?

[Unmei]

[dindaur]

[dindaur]

[Unmei]

[Dray]

[Unmei]

[Dray]

[dindaur]

[Nightops]

[dindaur]

[Bruennor]

[Nightops]