is survivability really still a big issue?

[Giac]

[Scowls]

[Tarnnok]

[Jeones]

[Tarnnok]

[Jeones]

[Giac]

[Brohg]

[Tarnnok]

[Renia]

1) how many -agro alt points have you spent?
2) how many avoidance/mitigation alt levels do you have?
Ok, I'm still working on MC1 to get to CanniV, which has priority above anything else.

3) is your gear on par with the content you're currently pursuing?
No idea,

4) how often is survivability a major issue for you?
Too often Almost at least once every raid.

Could be that my gear is not good enough, cause a white coning mob easily killed me yesterday when I couldn't make my slow land and main healer druid was looking the other way. But I prefer slowing and die instead of healing myself and letting a mob run around unslowed. I did try to toss myself a heal in the end - You begin casting chloroblast. Your spell is interrupted. Loading zone, please wait...

Yes, we can adjust our timing. Yes, we can avoid doing things that draws agro. (We could also join only well balanced groups where the tank can hold agro and the healer does heal, as well as only go to less challenging zones - but...how fun would that really be?)

But sometimes things does go wrong and then a cleric's DA would have been really nice. And yes, it should be a spell, not an AA. And we could get it around lvl 50 (pallies get DA at 48, clr at lvl 1).

[Brohg]

[Scowls]

excatly why i have given up on this thread, and the other identical one (I Hate AG). AG allows us to take unbeleivable amount of dmg...tons more than we could a month ago, while still casting heals, slows, VP. thats something clerics/druids/bards/whoever cant do.

[Tarnnok]

And I agree with you. We don't deserve 50k of protection. We don't need it either. And you're right, running from something, or feigning, or what not isn't helping anyone win. It's just saving your own ass.

Hey, maybe that's what he's calling for. "Shaman need a Save-my-ass AA to keep us alive until the end when everyone else is dead" *shrug* I don't know. I just don't agree we need it.

[Scowls]

DA doesnt help much when the raid/group wipes around you...you just get dead 18 seconds after everyone else. i much prefer taking lots of dmg over 18 seconds while healing and slowing, so i can help turn the tide of a potential wipe.

[OMGcookiecrisp]

[Maccuul]

[Scowls]

[Ughbash]

[Beafly]

[Tarnnok]

[haxot]

[Maccuul]

[Tarnnok]

[Unmei]

[Maccuul]

[Giac]

[Dasha]

[Unmei]

[Scowls]

[Ungkor]

[Kraxsis]

[Dasha]

[Kraxsis]

Anguish trash mobs hit close to 2K even mitigated. I'm pretty sure the Dreadspire mobs can be as nasty. Add a kick or bash in there and you can see it pretty fast. It's not that it happens every round. But it does happen often enough.

[Tarnnok]

When I read "quadded for 10k" I always take that to mean 4 shots at 10k a piece. Hell, your *tank* won't stand up to that. Unless we're talkin' 4 shots totalling 10k. I always seem to have different interpretations from people.

Giac, I don't think any caster deserves unlimited mitigation for 18 seconds from a single ability. Chanters can create the effect by chaining their runes together, but that's multiple spells, not just one. I think someone mentioned a wizzie AA that makes damage come from their mana bar instead of their health bar, so long as they have mana. That's still capped eventually based on the person. I'd wager what? 10-15k max? Assuming supremely geared wizzies? (I dinnae know their mana pools, so I'm aiming high and hopefully being close) And they still aren't mitigating the damage (as in not taking it in the first place. The damage is coming out, it's just coming from a different pool). So no, I don't think we or any other caster deserves an unlimited 18 second mitigation ability.

Wow, he used smart in my direction. That's the first time that's happened, sarcastically or no.

[Scowls]

where are you getting hit for 2500 dmg per hit at on quading mobs? anguish trash doesnt hit even close to that...some of the named dont even hit for that. and at that lvl you should have picked up a piece or 2 of shielding/avoidance gear...something found in abundance on shaman wearable items. are you clearing anguish naked? or sitting after slows on incomming? i really dont know how or why yo take max damg every hit. as for dreadspires? they hit for 1500ish, not 2500.
If you dont know WHEN to use something, you either will next time (part of a learning curve), or shouldnt be there...possibly ever if you cant learn. knowing when to use an ability is something we have been practicing since our days at orc highway

[Kraxsis]

You're right. It's not 2.5K. I think he was exaggerating a bit. I said around 2K. Not everyone has 2100 AC, 17% Sheilding, Improved Dodge III and 95 avoidance. I know of several times that I've taken 5 hits in a round for 8-10K from a single mob. Like I said, it doesn't happen every time but more than once every 15 mins if I'm the main slower. Hell, it's not like the stuns, bounced slows or whopping 2 seconds make much difference from one round and a second anyway. Thats w/ reasonable gear and max defensive AA.

Also, I'm not sure about this one but don't HoTs only hit at the end of a 6 second tic? So depending on when its cast on average we wait 3 more seconds for the heal and as long as 5 which would be my luck.

[Scowls]

yeah they hit on the end, or bginning of the next tick, that could be half a second away, could be 5 and a half. anc aid wont save many against cragbeast queen, but anc aid +epic when cleric div arbs or theres ae DD spells going off helps a ton. if needed, we can push out 733 regen to a group, 840 to another target on top of that, and 350 to ourself...outsanding amount of healing, considering cast time for all this is 3.8 seconds, and all last from 42 sec to 4 minutes, and only 1 of them costs mana. on top of that there is blast heals, which can (with aa and focus) be pretty large heals. shit hits the fan even with clerics around, it all depends on how the group reacts as a whole, as to if its win-able or a wipe, and shaman has alot of tools at our disposal to get the big "W". all of us have countless stories of dead clerics, multiple mobs, dead tanks, and still defeating the mobs.

[Kianor]

Don't exaggerate to make a point, it only destroys your point instead when it's noticed. Anguish trash do not quad for 10k.

Here is a sample log of me being killed by those "quadding for 10k" Anguish trash mobs. I have a few similar ones, but I don't tend to get killed in Anguish that often - this time, I think a few of the raid got ahead of the rest of the raid on clearing, and I got agro. As you can see, I survived with 2 mobs hitting me for around 10 seconds.

I used this particular log because it shows me using AG, and the effect it has. Though I used it rather too late to make a difference - note how I tried to heal myself first. I think I was already around 20% when I hit it. if I'd used it earlier, I might have survived, the cleric had arrived and started to heal me. I haven't got the habit of using Ancestral Guard properly yet.

Also, I have Anguish level loot mostly - buffed I'm around 2100 ac and 13000hp. I have 80 avoidance, 23 shielding, together with AA up to Reflexive Mastery 5 and Defensive Instincts 1. Not everyone has that, but that is the level of loot you get from the zone. It's appropriate to consider that you wouldn't be in anguish without a decent level of loot and AAs.

[Thu Oct 13 17:45:53 2005] An aneuk augur tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:53 2005] An aneuk augur tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:53 2005] An aneuk augur hits YOU for 568 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:54 2005] An aneuk augur hits YOU for 285 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:54 2005] An aneuk augur hits YOU for 1249 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:54 2005] An aneuk augur tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:56 2005] You begin casting Ancient: Wilslik's Mending.
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:56 2005] An aneuk augur hits YOU for 852 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:56 2005] An aneuk augur hits YOU for 1362 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:56 2005] An aneuk augur hits YOU for 1135 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:57 2005] An ikaav mind renders flesh is seared by flames.
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:57 2005] An aneuk augur hits YOU for 1022 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:57 2005] An aneuk augur hits YOU for 738 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:57 2005] An aneuk augur hits YOU for 455 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:57 2005] Your spell is interrupted.
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:58 2005] An aneuk augur hits YOU for 965 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:58 2005] An aneuk augur hits YOU for 1249 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:58 2005] An aneuk augur tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:59 2005] An aneuk augur hits YOU for 512 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:59 2005] An aneuk augur tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:59 2005] An aneuk augur hits YOU for 738 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:59 2005] an ikaav mind render says 'You will not evade me Kianor!'
[Thu Oct 13 17:45:59 2005] You have been summoned!
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:00 2005] An ikaav mind render hits YOU for 270 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:00 2005] An ikaav mind render tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:00 2005] An ikaav mind render hits YOU for 594 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:00 2005] You begin casting Ancestral Guard.
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:00 2005] You call upon ancestral spirits for protection.
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:00 2005] An aneuk augur hits YOU for 213 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:00 2005] An aneuk augur tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:00 2005] An aneuk augur hits YOU for 72 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:00 2005] An aneuk augur tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:01 2005] An ikaav mind render hits YOU for 257 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:01 2005] An ikaav mind render hits YOU for 324 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:01 2005] An aneuk augur hits YOU for 227 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:01 2005] An aneuk augur tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:01 2005] An aneuk augur tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:02 2005] (Cleric) says, 'PR on Kianor'
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:02 2005] An ikaav mind render hits YOU for 95 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:02 2005] An ikaav mind render hits YOU for 189 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:02 2005] an ikaav mind render says 'You should not have trifled with my magic, little one. '
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:02 2005] An ikaav mind render hits YOU for 216 points of damage.
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:02 2005] You have been knocked unconscious!
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:02 2005] You have been slain by an ikaav mind render!
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:02 2005] Returning to Bind Location, please wait...
[Thu Oct 13 17:46:03 2005] LOADING, PLEASE WAIT...

[Ungkor]

Kianor, please post a log from a lighting warrior, not a Aneuk.

Sure, it might not be 10k exactly. But a lighting mob will kill me very consistently at around 1.5 rounds. I raid buff to 11,800. I have 3% total shielding. We are relatively new to Anguish, so I haven't had much time to build that number.

Regardless of the exact max hit, 1.5 rounds isn't exactly a lot of time to work with. If I hit AG, it extends my life, at absolute MAX, by one round on a lighting mob. I have yet to see it last 3 ticks in Anguish, on any mob.

AG is ok for blackwing/creator missions. Not so hot in upper tier content. And what happens next expansion? Its value declines even more. We need something that scales, or at least has some percent chance to lose aggro, or a straight up higher max absorbtion.

As it is now, AG mainly serves to 'take the edge off' a situation that I probably would have survived anyways. It is when I really need it, that it fails me. I can count on one hand the times I can honestly say its saved my life, but I need both hands and both feet to count the times I've died after hitting it.

The bottom line is: I cannot slow a mob fast, then switch to fast heals instantly, otherwise, the occasional add will eat me. (on raids). Clerics also, cannot immediately spam heal, nor can druids. However, Clerics have several aggroless heal type options. If I do both my jobs, I generate 2x the aggro that a cleric does, and I do this very quickly and at the beginning of a fight. I believe that Druids are about equal to us in terms of survival options, but they rarely generate the same levels of aggro that we are capable of.

Over the course of a night, if I want to live at about the same rate that a cleric lives through encounters, I have to consciously scale back my activities. Whether that is 'right' or not, I guess is another debate. But you cannot argue that we generate less aggro than a Druid or Cleric, and you cannot argue that we have more survival tools. More aggro, less tools. Its not exactly rocket science.

[Ungkor]