lets get paladins ae aggro

[Blabberpuss Stryyker]

[Kianor]

[Zyba]

[Kilgaroz]

[Hulkling]

[dindaur]

[Bruennor]

[dindaur]

@ bruen

with 2 bursts, maybe, but with 1, no. post some logs or something, i havent heard of anyone else using the two bursts the way you are. now that ive read bout the burst, im working towards it, valor faction amiable for the rank 2 new burst. til then i just havent tried it out yet myself.

couple things i wrote down over the last two raids:
problem is having to cast heals with the only reason of getting aggro, i think its kinda bummish we need to heal to aggro. no matter how awesome we get our ac we still need those heals. burst's pretty powerful, sucks your mana though. stun like normal, f1 and heal yourself with a burst go back to stunning. or stand near newly pulled mobs and burst. keeps aggro on you rather than anyone else. burst aggro seems not to be worth much.

[Bruennor]

Trust me, you will like the outcome of it. I did the faction by chaining the quest that has you finding brom's head, or was it grom, dont remember, to start off, and just plowing the crypt under. The spell is very worth it, and the ae aggro from 2 bursts is just plain insane.

As for parses, how the heck do you parse heal hate like bursts. I will be honest with you, I have never parsed a thing, I only go with what has been working for me for at least 2 months now.

[Ughbash]

[Luthair]

[Kianor]

[Zyba]

[dindaur]

[Ughbash]

[Zyba]

[dindaur]

[Unmei]

[Zyba]

[Ughbash]

[Ughbash]

[Kianor]

[Unmei]

[Zyba]

[Bruennor]

[Ughbash]

[dindaur]

[dindaur]

[Nodden]

[Hulkling]

[Abazzagorath]

I don't have any problem holding aggro on multiple mobs. If someone else takes damage, group heals pulls a lot of aggro. In a mass add raid environment with aes, it is even enough to outaggro sks. The only real problem we have with "ae aggro" is the speed at which it happens. I wouldn't complain to get some pure aggro ae spell, but I see no "need" for it at all.

[Kianor]

[Finhorn]

[Zyba]

[dindaur]

[Wyvernwill]

Class warfare is always a "grass is greener" fight, let's just get that statement out of the way right now. As far as SKs are concerned, we're over pampered babies that have been spoiled rotten.

In terms of ae agro/taunt, the problem is in a lot of situations, It will not solve the issues we are having. Case in point, if we were to have an AE agro tool that was at all reliable for holding agro against someone foolishly attacking the wrong mob or going too hard on one mob... it would dominate anything SKs have. It would have to to generate that much agro.

I would be fine seeing something with a highly prohibitive recast (3-7 minutes). This would leave it at an "Emergency Use" tool and force us to maintain agro on multiples by using our already solid means of doing so.

Honestly, I still, to this date feel there is no need for an AE agro means for Paladins.

[StPauli]

[Bruennor]

Figures, the next insane paragraph poster shows up out of the blue..... sorry man, had to say something =p, split that first paragraph into 3 seperate ones plz.

And why do you think paladins need ae aggro? If you really read this entire thread, you will know this isnt a discussion of raid ae hate, but of group. A lot of paladins agree that we should not have anywhere near reliable hate on raids, its not our job. If you wish to debate this point, start another thread, because this one is focusing on the other end of the spectrum.

And dindaur ,yes we are held up to sk's when it comes to ae hate, and warriors as well. If we get reliable ae aggro, able to be used when we want it to, then we will infringe of warrior and sk raid roles, and we have no right to demand that when we are far from lacking in the raid department.

I explained how to get ae aggro in group situations. I am not sure if some paladins are just too lazy to go get their second burst, or just want to argue, but from "personal" experience over the last month and a half, I easily keep aggro on multiple mobs using the dual burst method. I am not blowing hot smoke, I have tested, and found to work, the ae aggro method I listed. I am sorry you feel that burst heals shouldnt be aggro tools, well, not really sorry, but the point is they are ae aggro, and unless they nerf the hate on the burst line, it would be very easy for a paladin to ae aggro a group of mobs with this proposed idea of yours, and then burst themselves for major ae hate. This won't happen.

And zyba, I recommend you have a talk with your friend. There is only one of 2 things I see happening in your scenario. One, your friend is somehow involved in the pull and also has aggro on all the mobs and gets closer to them than you are before you can heal yourself.
Two, your friend is using a weapon with a high aggro proc, like a rune. I did a pick up group in hoh, due to sheer boredom, on my 73 rogue, and my tacvi 1hb with the rune click made all adds come to me after 2 proc's due to the tank in the group not exactly being stellar at their job. May of had something to do with them 2 boxing the cleric to. If it was this reason, that backs up my proposal that our heals are insane aggro, because they are a lot more aggro than a rune 3 lv proc.
Third, adding a third, because I don't see a reason to not be blunt. The third reason is your friend hit the other mobs somehow, before you healed. He may of been a ranger who used his ae nuke. He may of been a class who tried to heal you while hitting stuff. he may of been a class who debuffs and hit one too few mobs. Point is there are perfectly reasonable explanations to your scenario. Whats funny is if your friend waited till you were 60 percent so you could burst heal yourself, you would not of lost aggro unless your friend really tried.

Anyway, think what you will. I used my burst heals time and time again for ae aggro, and they have yet to let me down, other than getting me killed when im not the tank, but oh well, whats a death here and there.

[dindaur]

my point is discussing sk methods of aggro wont get us any better of an understanding of our own tools. this seems to be the case though. and as for the whole "why do you think we need ae aggro" . i think it needs to be just assumed all tanks need ae aggro, its a use and function any tank would and does use.

@stp
stp i defer you on alot of what youre saying, i know you have a better understanding than i do but i will say that i do think the way ive observed burst working is a little different. i can stand in a pack of mobs just pulled in ag, they may be messed may not, both ways worked, and just target myself fire a burst maybe fire a second for good measure, then just go back to the mob thats being assisted upon. burst alone there did something, and i may have been full health to be egin with but it did something. *edit* and the mes doesnt seem to stop the mobs from building up hate on me from the bursts cast. thats the only difreeence, i think the messed mob doesnt need to be aggrod before the mes to take on the burst aggro.

what youre saying about proximity and aggro preexisting makes some sense, the wizard in the back of the raid scenario, although i have a feeling that even in that case, that if you were standing near mobs then the heal would give you some ae ahate. perhap thats building upon your proxy aggro but i think if the target youre healing is oor it wont matter, i think the aggro is coming from where you stand. maybe its wrong to call this ae hate, maybe what it is is giving you additional hate on mobs you already have proximity aggro on

@bruen + stp

and bruen while i respect what youre saying, you still have not posted a log. just turn log on, do a fight, turn log off, then log out eq, go to sony > eq > log files> search out the bruener.log and post it. that info will be useful. its way more useful than just infinately disagreeing with a claim. provide some evidence and then youll find ill and others will accept the double burst method a little more. given that alot of us dont have the second burst yet. also i think the circumstance you spoke of was in bloodmoon. thats not every instance. ae aggro is not a raid role. it really isnt. any fight you could solve with ae aggro you could also solve with individual tanks. ae aggro doesnt make and break events. we have a millions ways to do most things, ae aggro is just one flavor of it. ill call it a direct aggro area of effects cast then i guess as to not confuse it with a heal aggro although they are really working towards the same end, aggro on multiple mobs. we could use the overly described method of proximity aggro and then heal aggro and that would act just like ae aggro. its tricky because on mobs that blur you would have to continually resetablish your proximity aggro, which mymay not be easy , but if you stood alone by yourself then you might find you could do it.

i do like the ae heal suggestion, its definately better than the ones ive been coming up with half alseep at the airport

@bruen
your argument has become
- ae hate is a raid ability ( i disagree. i dont think ae hate is a special raid ability )
- you and / or your friends are not playing right ( these sorts of comments are useless without hard logs to base your observations on )
- you use two bursts with success ( post a log. youre really not explaining much beyond i am casting two bursts, but over a 2 minute fight there's way more time than to cast only 2 bursts, how many bursts overt the course of a fight ewill you on average cast , what are the circumstances )
- imply that raid ae hate and group ae hate are different ( and how do you intend to ensure this, put some coding in where the same ate hate spell that does work in bloodmoon will have zero aggro in ashengate? thats a fool dream, whatever aggro you have will always work universally, you just have to properly bring about those circumstances where your heal aggro will be maximized ( stand where youneed to stand ).)

@ bruen, tell us about your warrior friend that ae tanks in frosctype, whats he doing to get ae aggro

[Bruennor]