mechanics of rune vs guard, etc

[Jaraman]

Something I've always wondered about: are Rune and Guard different creatures, or just different names for the same effect? Also, are there other similar creatures like these?

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=483
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=4387

From what I understand, and hope, is that Guard, like Ancestral Guard and the procs from our AE slows, pop up upon proc, then disappear after they absorb the stated amount of damage. Whereas Rune hopefully procs, then stays around hit after hit, absorbing X amount from each hit until its timer (not amount absorbed) wears out. In which case, Rune is superior to Guard. Do I have this right, or is a rose still a rose just by another name?

[Brohg]

Rune poofs when it has absorbed the listed amount.

[Yesak]

Major differences between the two:

Runes will absorb ALL damage until the limit is reached and it will poof.

Our guards will absorb SOME of the damage until the limit is reached and it will poof.

As an example I will just make up numbers. I'm too tired and too lazy to look them up.

Say you have a rune for 5,000 damage. A mob hits you for 1,000 for 6 swings. You will get a message saying "Your magical skin absorbs the damage" for the first 5 swings and it will do no damage to you at all until it wears off and the 6th hit will do max damage.

The guard absorbs 20% of incomming damage for 5,000 damage. In the same scenario of 6 hits you will be hit for 800 instead of 1,000. So 800, 800, 800, 800, 800, 800 for the 6 swings. And it will keep going until the 5,000 damage is reached, in this scenario 25 hits.

So guards tend to last last longer (closer to full duration) but do not make you invincible. You will still take damage, just less of it. Rune makes you completely invincible until the damage limit is reached. Hope I explain that well. I'm tired and sort of rambling

[Sowslow]

I also believe runes absorb all damage including spell damage and guard only protects from melee damage.

[Unmei]

Yesak has it right and mostly complete.

The only other difference, really, is that guard effects are restricted to either spell damage (DD only) or Melee damage. There are effects that absorb both, but they do it kludgily, and essentially absorb damage from both until either one exceeds a set threshhold. (i.e. a spell and melee guard for 1000 can take 900 spell damage -and- 900 melee damage and still be up, or it can take 1001 melee damage and 0 spell damage and fail.) Rune effects, on the other hand, absorb both types from the same pool, so if you have a rune for 1k and take 500 spell damage and 500 melee damage, it will drop.

Runes also prevent melee knockback while they are up. Guards do not, I believe, even if they are '100%' guards (Though I'm -not- entirely certain about that last bit. Definitely any guard for less than 100% does not prevent melee knockback.)

[Cromagnon]

Another difference between the two is Rune gives Agro/Hate generation at a rate of 2 hate per 1 point of Rune and applies this to anything you have agro with. So a 400 point Rune will generate 800 agro/hate per mob that is pissed at you. Guard effects give "normal" buff hate which is rather incrementally small, though I do believe it is applied to anything pissed at you as well, it is just a incrementally small amount, just like the Vie line of spells that clerics get (does exact thing that guard does).

On another note, due to the difference in hit numbers needed for the Vie / Guard lines, if you are using a proc especially, you will overwrite the buff more than likely before it goes full term, whereas a rune will be used up quickly in battle, more than likely before the reproc happens, so you will see bigger gains of "absorbed" damage with rune procs as you will tend to get more full absorbtion per cast/proc. This is somewhat of a moot point since both effects stack, but it is relevant in choosing one proc aug over another.

Hope that helps.
-Crom

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

[Cromagnon]

Big Cat,

I use the same rune setup on my warrior, weapon innate proc = Rune 4 (400pt rune = 800hate) and using Jade of the Ether aug = Rune 3 (240pt rune = 480 hate) so I'm familiar with your situation.

And proximity does not come into it. If you are not on a mob's hate list, then the rune agro will not be applied. EVER.

What makes it seem that way is usually when a roamer comes near when you are fighting a mob. If it has social assist agro, then when it sees the mob you are fighting agro and is in close enough range, it will add you to its agro list, and then on the next successful Rune proc, the hate will be applied (think of the social agro setting your whole group to +1 hate, which then will make mob look usually at who is closest to turn and start wacking, unless something like rune happens which will unbalance the add's agro list in your favor).

So in this scenario, you are fighting mob A which is social with roaming mob B. Mob B roams near enough to get social agro with Mob A, which then gets +1 for each person agroed by Mob A onto Mob B. As soon as a rune proc happens with your setup you will add 480(rune 3) to 800 hate (rune 4) to both mobs, and cause the Add (mob b) to come velcro himself to you and start wacking unless someone else outpaces your agro on Mob B.

Another word of note, is that if you still have Rune 4 proc in buff bar, and get a Rune 3 proc, you will still get the agro from the Rune 3 proc even though you get a "will not take hold" message. At least that seems to be the consensus so far, and how I've seen it work in my experiences. Only way that an agro mob will not get a rune proc's agro from that PC, is if the PC has the Rune buff set as a blocked Buff.

Not as clear as i wanted to make it, but short of time atm, let me know if you have more questions.

[Bigcat Daddy-o]

Yup. That was what I was asking. I think I was asking it in 'crackhead' language though. Just reread it and was thinking 'wtf was I on about?'

Also, I figured you'd understand what I meant, the rest was more for other folks that might be reading.

And that did answer my question. The real question I am wondering is it nec. to agro a mob in order to get the rune proc hate. And I think I answered my own question. If it is close enough to sense the rune proc, I am highly likely to be on its hate list already from proximity.

[cliffy]

Yes you have to already be on the hatelist otherwise you would be pulling mobs that are in proximity through walls like you can with a true PBAoE.

[Unmei]

Yeah. When you come right down to it, Rune hate is still buff hate. Really high buff hate, but buff hate. Mobs don't care if you're buffing unless they hate you already. When was the last time you aggroed a mob by casting focus?

[Jaraman]

Great answers, thanks. If you were to put it kludgily, rune is like combat avoidance and guard is like combat stability, just temporary with a set amount until it dissipates...

Question: can you only get this if you're an enchanter requesting this quest, or can it be re-quested by a non-chanter?

And what about the ? It also has Ethereal Rune (1950), and is Any Slot, so possibly castable by any class, right? Anyone try grouping Belinda?

Since the subject of knockback came up, I wonder -- when you "shake off the stun effect," does that mean melee knockback was prevented also?

[cliffy]

Any slot/can equip means that if your class can equip the piece of armor in any slot you will be able to click it, otherwise you won't. So only chanters can benefit from either of these clickes.

[Unmei]

Exactly. In much the same way that an enchanter can't get a clicky HoT by doing the shaman BP quest in Arcstone.